Should Eric Berry win the Thorpe Award?

by Will on Dec 10, 2009 1:17 PM EST in Tennessee Volunteer Football Comment 48 comments

Yes, yes he should. Because he did. WOO!

In 2008, Eric Berry turned in one of the most impressive seasons we've ever seen at Tennessee. He was the lone bright spot in a season of despair, the team's lone highlight reel star who positioned himself to earn national recognition even though the Vols went 5-7. Berry was the SEC Defensive Player of the Year and a first team All-American at strong safety, and was a finalist for the 2008 Thorpe Award, given annually to the nation's best defensive back.

Berry was joined by Taylor Mays of USC and Malcolm Jenkins of Ohio State as award finalists. Vol fans quickly pointed out that based on statistics and overall value to the team, Berry should've taken the award easily. However, it would be Malcolm Jenkins' name that was called when the award was announced, and Berry was denied.

Take a look again at the statistical comparison of Berry and Jenkins from 2008:

Eric Berry: 7 INT, 265 ret yds, 2 TD, 72 tackles, 8.5 TFL, 3 sacks
Malcolm Jenkins: 3 INT, 7 ret yds, 0 TD, 57 tackles, 4.5 TFL, 1 sack

This was an injustice, we said. Berry was clearly the best defensive back in college football in 2008.

This year, Eric Berry is once again a Thorpe Award finalist. He joins Joe Haden from Florida and Earl Thomas from Texas, and the winner will be announced during ESPN's College Football Awards show, live tonight from 7-9 PM EST. Berry's Heisman campaign fizzled, and thus far his quest to become the NCAA's all-time leader in interception return yardage has come up short, with EB just eight yards away from the record. In Monte Kiffin's defense, Berry has been moved closer to the line of scrimmage in a safety/linebacker hybrid role (which Berry likes to call "sacker"). This move, combined with opposing quarterbacks' knowledge of his presence and efforts to keep the ball out of his airspace, have kept Berry's interception numbers and opportunities down this season.

So as Berry journeys to Orlando once again to await the announcement of the Thorpe Award winner, one year after we all raised our fists over an injustice...is it fair for Berry to win it this time around?

Let's compare Berry's 2009 numbers to the other two finalists (note that Thomas and Haden played an extra game):

Eric Berry: 2 INT, 7 yds, 0 TD, 83 tackles, 6 TFL, 1 forced fumble, 2 fumble recoveries
Earl Thomas: 8 INT, 149 yds, 2 TD, 59 tackles, 4.5 TFL, 1 forced fumble
Joe Haden: 4 INT, 20 yds, 0 TD, 62 tackles, 5 TFL, 3 sacks, 2 forced fumbles

The statistical gap between Earl Thomas and Eric Berry isn't as wide as the one last year, where Berry had a significant edge on Malcolm Jenkins in every major statistical category and still lost. In fact, Berry and Thomas have become two very different types of players, making this award somewhat about style preference. If you go the traditional safety route and like interceptions, Earl Thomas is clearly the choice. If you want to emphasize tackles, then you lean towards Eric Berry.

I think if you removed the names and just showed the numbers, the vast majority of voters would give this award to Thomas. He is second in the nation in interceptions (no invite for UCLA's Rahim Moore, who had nine picks and got Jon Crompton twice?) and joins eight others as the only players in college football to run two back for touchdowns this season. If you included the fact that Thomas plays for 13-0 Texas and Berry plays for 7-5 Tennessee, it would further help his cause.

And look...I don't like Texas. At all. I'm still not a fan of Chris Simms, beating them in basketball didn't help, and everytime someone calls them "the real UT", I want to remind them that they're actually the "would be speaking Spanish if not for us UT". They are the non-conference team I want to play the most, now that Virginia Tech is on the books.

But shouldn't Thomas win this award?

And based on last year, shouldn't we expect Berry to walk home with the prize tonight?

Thomas, like Berry last year, is a sophomore. Berry is a junior and is destined for the Top 10 of the NFL Draft in April. And if this becomes a career or seniority award as it did for Jenkins last year, Berry has the edge. What's more, Berry has the greatest advantage over both Thomas and Joe Haden in name recognition: with over 100,00 votes, EB is currently running away with the Thorpe Award poll on ESPN's SportsNation.

If Berry wins, I'm going to be incredibly happy for him, and for us. The Vols haven't had an individual award winner since John Henderson brought home the Outland Trophy in 2000, and watched Travis Stephens get robbed of the Doak Walker in 2001, Berry get robbed last year, and we've made it this far in this post about defensive backs and individual awards without bringing up our friend from Michigan. This would be a great thing for Berry and for Tennessee.

And Berry has sacrificed his individual opportunities for the team this season, moving to a position on the field where his interception chances are very low, and still making an incredible difference for this defense. He has more tackles than any other defensive back in the SEC except Sean Richardson at Vanderbilt, who gets more opportunities to make tackles because he plays for Vanderbilt. Eric Berry is a once-in-a-generation talent who should go on to do incredible things in the NFL.

Should he win? I don't know. Will he win? I hope so.

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Yes. Next question

Making sure no one throws to your side of the field doesn’t show up in the stats, but it’s important. And, as you mentioned, look at those tackle numbers. And those numbers are a bit disingenuous in not including fumble return yardage. Remember that fumbleception return against Georgia?

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 10, 2009 1:28 PM EST reply actions

Yes

Berry has 48 yards on two fumble returns this year. Thomas has not recovered a fumble.

Rocky Top Talk

by Will on Dec 10, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions

Also of note

Berry is live chatting at UTSports.com right now - in the transcript already he’s talked about the best wide receivers he’s gone against, mentions that Riley Cooper is the only player to ever score a touchdown on him (!), and that his favorite NFL team is the Cowboys…since this is soon to be replaced by whatever team drafts him (please not the Cowboys), we’ll just move on.

Rocky Top Talk

by Will on Dec 10, 2009 1:31 PM EST reply actions

Hey now!

I grew up in Oklahoma, so Im a Cowboys fan by heritage. Although I’d love to see him in Big D, they don;t seem to be stinking enough this season to be in position to draft him w/o a trade. Failing that, I’d love to see him as a Titan.

by danmarcel on Dec 10, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions

Nice Riley Cooper!

He probly looked at him and said, “yea right”…“oops hes faster then I thought”. I dont know why else Cooper would be the only wr to score on him. He is probly one of the worst #1 reciever in the SEC.

"Why does bottled water have an expiration date?"

by Hook85 on Dec 11, 2009 1:56 AM EST up reply actions

What kind of question is this?

by golfballs03 on Dec 10, 2009 1:36 PM EST reply actions

I wish Berry would win it

but Earl Thomas is also very impressive. His stats separate him from the other two.

If the voters can somehow quantify the “difference-maker” quotient, EB will win overwhelmingly. He ensures the defense is lined up correctly (especially with the multitude of injuries at MLB) and patrols the short zone near the line of scrimmage.

I have enjoyed watching Berry for all three years. He is a top-5 NFL pick for sure.

Ball, oskie, cover, block, cut and slice, pursue and gang tackle... for this is the WINNING EDGE.

by pound the rock on Dec 10, 2009 2:15 PM EST reply actions

DB stats are the most misleading in football

without proper context (i.e. watching the game) you can never tell what the stats mean. is a guy getting a lot of tackles because his man is open all the time or because he is a great run stuffer who flies to the ball? are TFL’s part of a blitz happy scheme? is a guy getting a lot of picks because he plays in a league where offenses take to the air with reckless abandon or does he not get any picks because people are afraid to throw at him? a great defensive back can be a playmaker, or someone you never hear of because he makes his man disappear all game.

clearly EB should win.

The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.

by hal41605 on Dec 10, 2009 2:29 PM EST reply actions

Well, just to play devil's advocate

If we’re gonna use that argument, then we can’t really complain about Jenkins winning it last year, can we? I mean, he was a corner. Maybe he was the best corner in the nation and no one threw to him.

I happen to disagree and think that you have to use statistics when voting for these things. As such, I do feel Berry was robbed last year. But I don’t know that we could complain all that loudly if he doesn’t get it this year. One could even argue that he doesn’t really deserve it this year over those other two.

by nirwin on Dec 10, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions

It's hard to argue Haden over Berry

But you can obviously make a very strong statistical argument for Thomas. Even though I think Berry’s argument is better.

As far as last year, you’d need some watching of the games to see whether this was really the case with Jenkins. Did people avoid him? Or did he just not have a lot of INTs?

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 10, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions

I have quite a few Buckeye fans

That I talk to, and they said Jenkins was great and deserved the award, but said themselves Berry was better and more deserving.

Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!

by bobo_the_vol on Dec 10, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions

I live in New Orleans

And Jenkins is really playing well for he Saints. For what it’s worth.

by Prometheus1185 on Dec 10, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions

statistics for dbs

only show you what is easiest to quantify, not what is necessary to make an accurate qualitative judgment. the problem is that “db” isn’t a homogeneous position. their are many different roles in different systems that require different skills and predispose the player to certain statistical trends. for example, some safeties are ask to commit to stopping the run while others are asked to play center field and others still play corner which may require man or zone cover abilities. then there is the whole issues of blitz schemes. all of these roles make the accumulation of certain statistical measures more likely than others. because you are comparing a bunch of players who don’t actually, play the same schematic position, the stats by themselves are simply not an accurate measure of overall quality and level of play.

The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.

by hal41605 on Dec 11, 2009 1:33 AM EST up reply actions

good point.

I hate when people use stats, as if they dont even have to see the game to be able to tell who is better.

"Why does bottled water have an expiration date?"

by Hook85 on Dec 11, 2009 1:52 AM EST up reply actions

dont get me wrong

i am a big believer of using statistics whenever possible. but with certain positions it’s particularly perilous to rely too heavily on stats. db is certainly one of these.

The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.

by hal41605 on Dec 11, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions

Statistics done right is a lot of work.

And most people try to use stats as shortcuts to avoid work.

by Hooper on Dec 11, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions

I love to see a good stat.

But I am a firm believer in watching the game itself. Baseball has the new sabre stats and its hard to argue them becuase they cover alot of variables. But I still enjoy watching a game and putting the stats into my own perspective.

"Why does bottled water have an expiration date?"

by Hook85 on Dec 14, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions

I agree with hal on this one

Berry has lined up all over the field this year causing some of the Flashy Numbers a casual fan would look for to go down. However in all reality I think by showing how versatile he is this has been a better year for him even though it may have been a bit quieter.

by bullrider73 on Dec 10, 2009 4:17 PM EST reply actions

YES

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Dec 10, 2009 4:38 PM EST reply actions

The thing is

Last year, people said of Malcolm Jennings: “He’s good.. but is he as good as Eric Berry?” Are people this year asking if Eric Berry, while good, is as good as Earl Thomas? No. From a lot of the highlights I saw, Earl Tomas was getting his TDs off of returned out-route passes (think Dwayne Goodrich) which are the easiest in the book. Eric Berry can float like a butterfly, sting like a this. He can flat-out lay the lumber onto people, and his tackle numbers show that. I think 24 more tackles, by a safety — while not completely evening the purely statistical field — do draw them a lot more even. And besides: who has Earl Thomas gotten his picks on? Other than Todd Reesing, of Kansas, can you name a single starting QB in the Big-12? Also, teams threw the ball 448 times against Texas this year, compared to 375 this year and 332 last year. Oh, and in case you were wondering, opposing QBs totaled out to a worse QB-Rating against Tennessee than Texas’s opponents.

Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!

by bobo_the_vol on Dec 10, 2009 5:34 PM EST reply actions

Other than Todd Reesing, of Kansas, can you name a single starting QB in the Big-12?

Colt McCoy, but they’d only play in scrimmage :P

Berry should have won it last year. Not sure about this year, but if those Knoxville reporters hadn’t all put Tebow ahead of Ingram for Heisman I might be more inclined to care about your players getting snubbed.

What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.

-Hank Hill

by Zoltar on Dec 10, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions

I see what you did

Colt McCoy, but they’d only play in scrimmage :P

;-)

Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!

by bobo_the_vol on Dec 10, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions

Not quite true.

I know Jimmy Hyams, of Sports Animal 990, voted for Ingram.

by danmarcel on Dec 10, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions

Oh, Chris Fowler, so awkward

When you confuse Eric Berry for the guy sitting behind him in your opening joke, you’re off to a good start

Rocky Top Talk

by Will on Dec 10, 2009 7:05 PM EST reply actions

Huh?

Is something going on?

by Hooper on Dec 10, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions

That was awkward

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all.
-- Earl Weaver

by Smokin Turkeys on Dec 10, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions

Some nice zingers to begin by Fowler

(Paraphrases)
… Eric berry’s not hear listen to jokes about Lane Kiffin
To Cody: Hey look we got you an aisle seat
To Mccoy: up for the first and last awards of the awards, so he’ll be here to keep me honest on clock management

Really, the only bad part of bacon is that it makes you thirsty . . . for more bacon

by jacksonian on Dec 10, 2009 7:05 PM EST reply actions