Talking Points: the NCAA will make you anti-social
by Joel on Dec 11, 2009 7:35 AM EST
in Rocky Top Talking Points
61 comments
As suspected, the NCAA investigation isn't just about two anonymous hostesses attending a high school game in South Carolina, it's also about Tennessee's use of social media, and like we said yesterday, if the current rules don't specifically address Facebook, MySpace, and Twitter, then this could be more about the routine exploiting and closing of loopholes.
For his part, Lane Kiffin (not surprisingly) agrees with the whole "more success equals more complaints" notion:
I know that we've done a phenomenal job in recruiting. I know that it's very competitive around the country with the kids that we go after and within this conference. I think that anytime you're operating at the level we're operating at in recruiting, people are going to come after us.
People are going to question what we're doing, and as head coach it's my job to make sure that we're doing everything by the rules - and we are. We're excited about the direction we're going, and people will always try to take shots at us, they'll always try to bring us down, but it won't matter.
In any event, Kiffin's not in a hurry to come to any conclusions. Well, other than comparing this report from the NYT with the one they ran last year suggesting that Tennessee or Bryce Brown or Brian Butler had done something wrong when they hadn't:
What you've seen of me is I like to get all the information in, research what's going on, not jump to conclusions, and this is something that's had a lot of national run, been in a lot of media. I think what I compare it to in this situation is I go back to the Bryce Brown situation right before the season. That got a lot of national media attention, a lot of SportsCenter attention that the Tennessee staff maybe had some involvement in illegal recruiting of Bryce Brown, that Bryce Brown did some things illegal.
There was an investigation into that and it ended up with no wrongdoing. I look for this to be the exact same situation, a lot of stuff being said and in the end when the research is done and conclusions aren't being made, the same result will happen.
- Kiffin's viewing the Chick-fil-A Bowl as another opportunity to make a splash in Georgia with recruits. Billboards, helicopters, and bowl games. What's next? By the way, did you know that the Vols' bowl game against Virginia Tech will be the only football game on TV at that time? And that the Chick-fil-A takes four places in ESPN's top 15 all-time highest bowl numbers?
- A bit of good news. Eric Berry won the Thorpe Award last night. Chest bump to him. Chest bumps also to Aaron Douglas and Herman Lathers for being named to the coaches Freshman All-SEC team. Did you know that Douglas played his new position of right tackle for the last nine games of the season and allowed just 1.5 sacks in more than 700 plays and was second on the o-line with 58 pancakes?
- A bit of bad news. Linebackers coach Lance Thompson is a strong candidate to join Charlie Strong's staff at Louisville. Argh. Glad for Charlie and all (both because he deserves it and because he'll no longer be at Florida), but . . . Lance, too!?
- Going to really miss this guy. Eddie Gran got a sweet deal at Florida State, and Lane Kiffin had some great things to say about him (duplicate link) yesterday:
We’ll miss Eddie, he got a great opportunity. He wants to be a head coach, and to go be the assistant head coach there was an opportunity he really couldn’t pass up. We’re very excited for him. To kind of show what kind of guy Eddie is and our relationship with him, Eddie just left the office today. He’s been here the last three days even though he doesn’t work for us anymore, watching Virginia Tech for us and developing a plan for what he thinks we should do against them and writing it all down. He’s going to go over that with me, and it kind of describes what type of guy he is.
Add that guy next to Trooper Taylor's name on the list of guys I'd love to see return if we ever have a better opportunity for them on Rocky Top.
- The basketball Vols are playing MTSU tonight at 7:00. We'll have the open thread, as always.
- Swiperboy's got a new video, and he's getting some help from CBS Sports in promoting it and a related contest:
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It gets sensationalized on all the sport’s media sites and ESPN because they know it will draw in viewers – the idea of young coeds “hosting” football players. They may just be glorified tour guides but they can spin it however they like. Then it turns out they are really focusing on internet social networks – something not even remotely as interesting or scandalous. They tried to play it off as some huge recruiting scandal, but it’s going nowhere. If they find any wrong doing – it’s a minor secondary violation at most – and we know how the media loves to report those when it envolves Tennessee – even though Ole Miss has been flagged for 5 violations in the past 5 months, you won’t hear a lot of stink about them
I would be interested to know...
if one of these girls was actually from the same area in SC and this was more of a road trip home……..that happened to involve a football game…….of a guy she met at school on his recruiting trip…..and became FB friends with…..etc. Sounds like college to me.
I read somewhere that the girl of interest was from Murfreesboro in TN.
I haven’t bothered to research that, though; it just feels kinda creepy that I’ve even read that.
But at any rate, this doesn’t sound at all unusual on its face.
whats creepy
is that the media is delving into these girls’ personal lives by finding them on facebook and twitter and looking for pitcures to put on their sites (GVX).
GVX and NYT are stooping to new lows. GVX has no business posting those girls pictures without their consent. The NYT article was just silly in its sensational wording. I guess we live in a total tabloid, reality show world.
If anybody ever wonders what the media's end game is, with regards to lack of shame,
just read British publications. It’s getting bad here, but there are definitely new lows to be had.
This is the headline from fark
“UT’s head pim…coach, under investigation for sending prosti…hostesses to high school games to lure potential joh…recruits”
not that Fark is the pulse of the american public, but it shows how the media is trying to spin it. And it’s what most casual observers would take away from the headlines they see
I just read an article talking about a similar program that Florida uses.
Here’s the webpage of the hostess that recruited Tim Tebow
http://www.gatorzone.com/spirit/?squad=cheerleaders&profile=51
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
On a more serious note
Tony Barnhart just stated that his friend Andy Staples who writes for Sports Illustrated happened to attend one of said games and has a “smoking gun” picture of the UT hostesses in direct contact with the players. Reportedly they had signs which stated that the players were “in our hearts”.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
so what?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/andy_staples/12/11/tennessee-recruiting/index.html
please someone give me a reason this is a big deal, because i think its stupid.
Yep. There's a picture. Some girls hung out with some guys. Shocker
Does the NCAA really want to try to convince us that we care?
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 11, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
“please someone give me a reason this is a big deal, because i think its stupid.”
that’s what we said about the Textbook thing. But the picture is significant because it proves that they didn’t just go to the game and hold up signs that said “Come to Tennessee”.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
Sign doesn’t have to say anything about Tenn. The NCAA, as draconian as it is, does make the rules. And this particular rule is not very tough to interpret. No contact off campus by anyone affiliated with the university…officially or unofficially.
Ever own season tickets? Ever donate to the booster club? Guess what…by NCAA standards, you are eternally considered an official booster and you too can’t have contact with a player about Tenn. Weird, but that’s the way it is.
there is no way that is true
you’d need to prove that before i believe that i would be committing a ncaa violation by showing up to my cousins high school football game and telling him to go to UT, just because i have season tickets. i just can’t believe something like that.
Also, in my fraternity, we rushed kids before they got to school. a few years ago we rushed some football players. are you saying we committed NCAA violations in reaching out to these kids and encouraging them to come UT??? That’s madness
Google "NCAA Booster Regulations"
Every school, or most, post on their official athletics website who is considered a booster. It’s enlightening…enjoy. Exceptions do include pre-existing relationships, so you could show up at your cousin’s game.
Here’s a snippet of what they normally say (or a variation of this):
Who is a “Booster?”
A “booster” is known in NCAA terms as a “representative of the institution’s athletics interests.” You become a booster if:
· You have ever been a member of any organization promoting Texas Tech Athletics,
· You have ever made any type of donation to the Red Raider Club, TTU Athletics (including season tickets) or any other TTU booster organization,
· You have ever assisted in evaluating or recruiting prospective student-athletes,
· You have ever assisted in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes or their families,
· You have promoted Texas Tech Athletics in any other manner.
NCAA Bylaw 13.02.12.1 mandates that when you become a booster, you retain that identity for the rest of your life. As a representative of TTUs athletics interests, you are bound by NCAA rules. TTU is responsible for your actions.
Boosters CANNOT:
Cannot contact recruits, either in-person, by telephone, in writing or by any other methods.
Cannot contact the recruit’s coach, principal or counselor in any manner.
Cannot provide any type of benefit (money, services, items) to recruits or student-athletes, unless such a benefit is readily available to the public in general and such a claim can be easily demonstrated
Further Q/A snippet:
Q. Is it permissible to contact a prospective student-athlete or his/her parents or legal guardians?
No. An athletic representative (booster) may not contact a prospect or his/her parents in person, by telephone or in writing, except when the prospect is on the Texas Tech campus.
"You have promoted Texas Tech Athletics in any other manner."
That’s pretty ambiguous. These rules are rediculous
by golfballs03 on Dec 11, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
golfballs03, you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting the various issues here. If you had a previous relationship such as being a relative of a recruit, then there are exceptions. So no, you wouldn’t be committing a violation by watching your cousin. And these girls weren’t just there watching them. They were there with signs and met with them.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
There's a letter and a little pamphlet
that comes in the package with season tickets, giving very basic rules about what you are and aren’t supposed to do. Anything that could be considered persuasive personal contact with a high school recruit could potentially fall into the danger zone. Nine times out of ten, said contact is meaningless. But even if it’s just a secondary violation, rules like this are out there.
Definition of 'host'
host: One who receives or entertains guests in a social or official capacity.
Which means that once they left campus to attend this game, whether it was across the street or across state lines, they are no longer ‘hostesses’, they become ‘representatives’ of the universities’ interest.
Spin it how you want, but pure common sense says that college women do not pursue high school boys on their own, especially holding signs…..
This could be nothing or it could be deep doo-doo, but unfortunately for you, your coach has chosen the ‘lightning rod’ approach to his job which means that it doesn’t matter if So-and-So State has more minor violations, or if the Orange Pride thing ends up being nothing, UT is going to get the maximum negative treatment.
Meanwhile, LK sits in his Fortress of Solitude and throws you fans to the wolves to defend him and your program. I, like the rest of college football, am just going to pull up a chair and watch.
Good luck with……all that……
by yellowhammer on Dec 11, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
well
i’m referring to your description of Kiffin. i realize that the NCAA’s rules are insane.
by golfballs03 on Dec 11, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
pure common sense says that college women do not pursue high school boys on their own
Heh. It might be hard for us bloggers and commenters to imagine because it certainly doesn’t happen to us, but they do pursue football players.
Rocky Top Talk
Maybe
,,but if they were just ‘going to the game’ they would have just ‘went to the game’ without trying to draw attention to themselves.
by yellowhammer on Dec 11, 2009 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
So. . .
If someone in the ambassador program decides to date a high school football player, is that a recruiting violation? Because it sounds like it is. And that is patently absurd.
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 11, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
Are they dating?
Also, Joel purposely left out the last part of my sentence:
common sense says that college women do not pursue high school boys on their own, especially holding signs
.
by yellowhammer on Dec 11, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
His Dad says he thinks they are
And that would obviously explain the signs.
That said, my statement was more of a hypothetical. The situation in question is so closely parallel to a situation where dating does happen that I’m not sure an NCAA rule could distinguish the two. Which means that if the NCAA really considers this a problem, there may be some unforeseen consequences that are truly ridiculous (and possibly questionable legally. I don’t know anything about law, so I won’t make any comments, but this would seem like a privacy issue).
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 11, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I did that on purpose
Because I was making a joke. You must have a sense of humor. It’s in the community guidelines.
;-)
Rocky Top Talk
yeah I know
I just brought it up because I thought that I_S may have taken what I said out of context from your post.
by yellowhammer on Dec 12, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
Where'd you get that line?
Because it’s total crap. I know plenty of college girls who’ve dated high school guys.
Another great argument I saw on a message board:
I find it difficult to believe these young ladies/college students had the money to make this trip without assistance from the program. If they did have the money, what do they stand to gain from such a trip?
I think this is the funniest one I’ve heard yet. Has this person ever been to college? My freshman year, a group of my friends decided to drive to Charleston (4 hour drive) after dinner one Thursday night. They drove down, went to the beach, and made it back for 8 AM classes Friday morning. They’re friggin’ college students. It happens.
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 11, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
And Charleston is a 6-hour drive.
I used to live there. Of course, that’s a 6-hour drive if you’re not one for Warp 3 down the pass. ;-)
I didn't mean that to correct you.
Only to highlight that your friends, um, made the most of their time. ;-)
Otherwise, getting to Chucktown and back by 8 AM leaves little time for anything except refueling.
Ok, I thought it was funny.
Alright, fair enough
And you’re right, I don’t know what they had time for. But they did it.
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 11, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
that's pretty impressive, really.
especially in the dark. Those South Carolina night patrollers get serious.
your comments are ignorant
no school comments about ongoing NCAA investigations, that is not throwing us to the wolves to defend him.
You bama fans keep ignoring the fact that the only way this isn’t a secondary violation is if they can somehow prove they were told to make this trip (VERY UNLIKELY). This is not providing players with illegal benefits and we are not on repeat offender status.
Living in Alabama is like living 50 years in the past, they are still just as racist, just as educated, the state constitution forbids any kind of public transportation, and all they can talk about is Bear Bryant
There's a pretty good chance
they were told to make that trip, otherwise how would they know which recruits to visit? And even if they weren’t told to go, apparently, they weren’t told NOT to go.
by yellowhammer on Dec 11, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
because they've met before
and said they wanted to go see them play
by golfballs03 on Dec 11, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
You know that?
or are you just saying that? And does it matter?
by yellowhammer on Dec 12, 2009 1:22 AM EST up reply actions
yes we know that because everyone involved said that they had
they met at a summer camp and he asked her to come to one of his highschool games, they came to the biggest game of the season which was (at the time b/t the top 2 ranked teams and was a rivalry game)
and yes it does matter b/c the main thing that will determine the seriousness of this will be whether they were told to go. This should be almost impossible to prove even if it was the case (which seems improbable)
Living in Alabama is like living 50 years in the past, they are still just as racist, just as educated, the state constitution forbids any kind of public transportation, and all they can talk about is Bear Bryant
Also on the subject
Wasn’t David Oku dating a Nebraska girl last year? Didn’t he move to Nebraska to be close to her? And if this is a violation, why wasn’t that?
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 11, 2009 10:41 PM EST reply actions
was she on the payroll and involved with the football team? If not then no. If so, then probably yes. In fact I believe I heard somewhere that the Orange Pride girls are supposed to be prohibited (by UT) from dating recruits and possibly players.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
I have no idea
Except that he met her “on a recruiting visit,” which sounds somewhat suspicious.
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 11, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
not according to the NCAA
she can be a “representative” of the school just by supporting the team – according to Tech92.
by golfballs03 on Dec 11, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
Here's more fun from the NYT
from the same authors, I think this is going in print in the morning. This mentions potential violations with a recruiting intern with Kiffin in South Florida, and heavily quotes Keith Easterwood…who is a Memphis AAU coach. The bias alarm is ringing in my head.
With all due respect
these writers are a joke. The tag for this headline has hostesses in quotation marks, as if to imply that they’re actually something else? And using a guy like Easterwood with ties to Tiger High Basketball as a credible source on UT Football recruiting? These guys are after sensationalism, not journalism. Grow up.
i totally agree
and here’s the money line buried in the article:
Tennessee has yet to receive a formal letter of inquiry from the N.C.A.A.
by golfballs03 on Dec 11, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Brent Hubbs is also saying
that it was Clemson, not South Carolina, that turned Tennessee in on the hostesses ($)
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