Heisman talk.....*Poll*
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Dec 2, 2009 9:58 PM EST
37 comments
Let me start out by saying that I'm an Oregon Duck fan, as well as a Tennessee Volunteer fan (I know, there's a conflict of interest....considering they play each other next year).
I can look at the Heisman Race objectively. I know how good the SEC is, and I know how good the Pac-10 is. I know the BIg 12 too....no pass defense. Colt is eliminated on the spot.
That leaves Mark Ingram and Toby Gerhart...
Like I said, I'm a Pac-10 AND SEC fan. I have great respect for both conferences....but, Toby Gerhart deserves the award. I wrote an article for a site I write for about this...and I would love for you guys to check it out. Give me feedback and spread the word.
Your opinion, postive or negative is always appreciated.
http://www.informativesports.com/NCAA_F/1209/Toby_Gerhart.htm
Thanks...and Go VolDucks!
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Toby should win in a landslide
Except that folks like Colt. And Tebow and Ingram will get southern votes, so the south won’t matter. Hopefully the midwest will go Gerhart. That’s his only hope. Your article made a good case as well.
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 2, 2009 11:17 PM EST reply actions
actually
I think McCoy might barely be a top 5 QB this year. I think Clausen, Pike, Tebow, Moore all had better seasons.
If the Heisman weren’t such a joke, Gerhart would win hands down
Couldn't really argue with Gerheart
and after the Auburn game I thought Ingram was done. But in one of the biggest games in recent CFB memory against a defense that was ferocious against the run, Ingram had a huge day. Florida had only given up 3 rushing touchdowns all year long, and Ingram matched that. When Florida came down and scored what ended up being their only touchdown, Ingram responded by taking a screen pass >50 yards, setting up a TD which kept the momentum on our side.
You mentioned two things in your article: breaking tackles and lack of talent. Well, Mark ingram has a huge percentage of his yardage after contact. I’m not going to say Alabama has a lack of talent. Obviously that’s not the case, but this year we did have to rebuild our OL and we face SEC defenses all year long.
Obviously I’m biased, but I think you can make a pretty good case for Ingram after the SEC Championship game.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
I think he may well win, but I still think Gerhart is better
Just look at how Richardson did against the Florida defense. I think it shows you that it was a lot more of a team effort than an amazing individual performance. In a fair world, it puts him in the top three (with Suh and Gerhart). In the real world, it may win it for him.
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 6, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Well, to a large extent that is the irony of the Heisman award. Football is the ultimate team sport, so how can you really judge individual accomplishments? I don’t think it’s fair to knock Ingram because Richardson does so well. We’re just lucky to have two amazing running backs who do incredible things with the ball.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
I agree that you have two amazing running backs
But if they’re both looking equally impressive, I’m less likely to believe that one of them is the best player in the country. It is quite hard to judge individual accomplishments, but I still prefer Gerhart over Ingram. He has more yards (in fewer games, albeit on more carries) and EIGHT more touchdowns. He’s led Stanford to 8-4, which I think may be as tough as leading Bama to 13-0. In back-to-back wins over Oregon and USC (both top 10 at the time, one still top 10), he ran for over 400 yards and 6 TDs. In his last four games, he has THIRTEEN touchdowns and averages 185.5 YPG. Those are eye-popping numbers, Heisman numbers.
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 6, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Gerhart has more rushing yards, but if you factor in reception yards, it becomes practically even.
Ingram total yards: 1864
Gerhart total yards: 1885
You could argue that Ingram being more of a receiving threat makes him more versatile. Ingram also has a higher yards per carry average than Gerhart (6.2 vs 5.6).
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
Gerhart
Has done it in 1 less game, however.
And you must admit that Ingram gets a LOT of HUGE holes from Bama’s talented O-Line.
Gerhart does NOT have that luxury. Stanford’s O-Line is doo-doo.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Dec 6, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
but Ingram has done it against better defenses
It’s not always straight-forward. who was the better player this year? it could go either way
Gerhart
Was the better player this year. He meant more to his team than Ingram.
Plus, 103 of Ingram’s yards came against an FCS team in UTC….Should be thrown out. How do you explain the 1.9 YPC performance against the nation’s 80th ranked run defense in Auburn?
Gerhart had a 223 yard effort against one of the country’s better run defenses in Oregon (38th out of 120). He also had a big day against the 27th ranked run D in Cal (136 yards and 4 scores).
The strength of the defenses they have faced are virtually even.
Gerhart is just a better football player than Ingram. He had a better statistical season (26 rush, 1 throwing TD for Toby)…Doing it with less talent around him.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Dec 6, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Also
He had a 125 yard day against the 18th ranked rush D in America (ASU)
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Dec 6, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
I fully expect
For Ingram to win, but that doesn’t mean that he merits the win.
Toby has the stats and performances to back it up.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Dec 6, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'd agree.
The only reasons Ingram wouldn’t would be either (a) if the southern vote is split (and that isn’t happening), or (b) the rest of the nation votes against the south to spite the SEC (a distinct possibility – especially in the Midwest – but not likely to change things).
This is the only time I've ever been cheering for the Midwest
Go Big 10 country! Vote Gerhart! (Clausen is good, but not that good).
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 6, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
Clausen doesn't stand a chance.
I can’t think of a serious Midwest candidate this year, which should help Gerhart more than Ingram. The Midwest tends to vote against the south whenever possible. (And vice versa.)
1 less game, but still significantly more carries overall. If you want to make an issue out of O-line differences, lets look at yards after contact. 49% of Ingram’s yards come after contact. That’s pretty significant. I can’t seem to find stats for Gerhart, but I did watch some highlight videos and I saw plenty of big holes for him to run through.
Again, overall yardage is basically even. Gerhart has more TD’s and more consistency. But Ingram has a better yard per carry average and some great “Heisman moments”. He basically put the team on his back and carried them to victory in a close game against South Carolina. 246 yards on 24 carries (10.3 ypc). On the drive that put the game away he carried the ball on every snap, methodically driving down the field and scoring a TD. More importantly, against a Florida team that was giving up 87 rushing yards per game and only yielded 3 rushing TD all year long, Marc Ingram racked up 115 yards (191 total) and 3 rushing touchdowns. That was in what many were calling the biggest non-bowl game in 35+ years, a play-in to the national championship.
Is it fair to put so much emphasis on the SEC Championship performance? Perhaps not. If you want to disregard the significance of that game and just look at it as a good performance against a very good opponent, then you’re probably going to say Gerhart deserves the Heisman.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
Gerhart is phenomenal
But Ingram did it against MUCH tougher opponents. Yeah, he didn’t do well against Auburn, but he also dropped 247 against South Carolina, and had some phenomenal performances against several great defenses, including UF, Ole Miss, LSU, VaTech, etc.
Then again, I’m biased :) Good luck in the CFA Bowl guys.
You play fast, you play strong, you go out there and dominate the guy you play against, and make his ass quit! That's our trademark, that's our MO as a team, aight, that's what people know us as! - Nick Saban, 2008
I was being sincere
I will be pulling for you guys against Vatech. SEC and all.
You play fast, you play strong, you go out there and dominate the guy you play against, and make his ass quit! That's our trademark, that's our MO as a team, aight, that's what people know us as! - Nick Saban, 2008
by BamaReturns07 on Dec 7, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
We were too
Texas is making it very easy to do so.
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 7, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
Duh
Sorry, I read Joel’s comments wrong…my bad, dyslexia I guess. Read it as “we’ll be pulling for Texas against you guys” damn. lol.
Appreciate it guys. Have a great Christmas!
You play fast, you play strong, you go out there and dominate the guy you play against, and make his ass quit! That's our trademark, that's our MO as a team, aight, that's what people know us as! - Nick Saban, 2008
by BamaReturns07 on Dec 7, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
That
was directed at BamaReturns, not Joel.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Dec 6, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Personally, I think McCoy
will get it, because in the end he’s the Senior QB on an undefeated team that is in the National Championship and he’s had enough big games against cupcakes to pad his stats. Do I think he is better? Hardly; I believe that it should go to one of the two much-debated candidates we’ve seen here.
Who? I’d give the edge to Gerhart, because he’s had plenty of “heisman moments” in his own right that have been much overlooked here. I mean, the guy is purty clutch, as is the Stanford offense. Also, Ingram is a Sophmore, and I’m really not for giving the award to an underclassman, as lame and unfounded an opinion as that is. Ingram will have plenty of time to earn plenty of awards, so that’s the tiebreaker to me.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
Gerhart is a sophomore too
He’s a senior academically, but that’s because he’s graduating early and had a medical redshirt year.
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 7, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
No he's not?
He’s played 4 years for Stanford.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Dec 7, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
Note to self:
Don’t believe the career stats or class standing at CBSSports.com
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 7, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
I hope so too
But I think he will.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Dec 11, 2009 3:58 AM EST up reply actions
According to...
… www.stiffarmtrophy.com Ingram in the lead with Suh and Gerhardt close behind. McCoy and Tebow don’t look to be a factor.
Auburn and Tennessee fans are a lot like Slinkys...neither are worth much but you do get a sense of satisfaction from pushing them down a flight of stairs
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