Dedicated to Bammer... Kiffin & Chizik in the same sentence

by memphispete on Jul 3, 2009 12:07 PM EDT Comment 19 comments

Bammer fans continue to raise the false argument that their two most hated rivals (UT and Auburn) are in exactly the same position through the new coaching hires. Let's explore the argument on a slow summer day...

Similarities -

1) Both are replacing 5-7 coaches in programs that have fallen from traditional powerful positions in their respective divisions.

2) Both were successful coordinators at successful programs.

Differences -

1) Coached on opposite sides of the ball - Chiz has been a defensive guy his entire career. Played LB at Florida. Various defensive responsibilities at MTSU, Central Florida, Auburn and Texas. Kiffin has been an offensive guy his entire college career. Played QB at Fresno State. Various offensive responsibilities at Fresno State, Colorado State and USC.

2) Chiz has no pro experience. Kiffin had two NFL gigs. He was the Quality Control Coach for the Jacksonville Jaguars. He had responsibility for breaking down game film (the scout) on the upcoming opponents, practice assistant and various other tasks. Kiffin also served as the head coach for the Oakland Raiders & the insane Al Davis for 1 year and four games.

3) Chiz has previous collegiate head coaching experience; Kiffin does not. Chiz took over 4-8 Iowa State and led them to 3-9 and 2-10 seasons. Defensive statistics (his specialty) and recruiting classes actually got worse under his leadership.

4) Kiffin hired an amazingly deep staff with outstanding success, including NFL experience. Chiz did not. None of Chiz's assistants have sniffed the NFL - except Rocker as a Hall of Fame player. Kiffin has the best Defensive Coordinator in the NFL, Monte Kiffin; Oregeron (Saints); Cheney (Rams); and, Cregg (Raiders).

5) Following loved coaches is the claim. Not so much. Fulmer was loved and respected at player at UT, as a long-time assistant; and, then in the early and middle parts of his head coaching career as he built UT into a national championship winner and a consistent competitor for the SEC crown. Manning and others swear their allegiance to him and still have great fondness for the man they identify as UT Football. Tuberville (intentional) burned his bridges on his way out at Old Mississippi and was neither a player nor a long-standing part of Auburn. Phil's teams did not perform as well on the field in his later years, so he wrapped up his time at UT. The exit was difficult but he will be honored appropriately. Tuber was welcome as a hired gun and Auburn kept him around as long as he won, but I don't think there will be any Tommy Days at Auburn.

There's more, but I'll leave open it up for y'all to chime in.

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Nice

Looks like you and I tackled both arguments at the same time with our posts.

Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!

by VolBrian on Jul 3, 2009 12:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think

We know who voted “the same”…

Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!

by VolBrian on Jul 3, 2009 7:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You represent your team well bammer bean. The amount of thought you put into that post is astounding to me.

The fact of the matter is that Tennessee and Syracuse both interviewed Coach Gill and neither of those schools caught/is catching any flack for hiring a white guy. They must be racist in Tennessee and New York (syracuse) as well. Why aren’t those Hillbillies (Tennessee) and yuppies (Syracuse) not catching any hell? The answer is simply that neither of those schools has that moron Charles (Wish I could swing a golf club) Barkley out making them look bad.

by mariane1 on Jul 3, 2009 11:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Bammer does represent his team well. If not, we wouldn't have a tongue-in-cheek dedication for him.

we would just make fun of his idea (politely, with civility) and move along. His argument is interesting and he’s not the only one making it. But he makes it well enough to deserve a rebuttal & a dedication.

I posted about it because I think there are more differences than similarities – once you look beneath the surface.

by memphispete on Jul 4, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

WOW!

Yalls glasses are THICK!!

by bammer on Jul 4, 2009 9:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

After the trouble of a dedication, we wuz a-hopin for some more substance in rebuttal.

by memphispete on Jul 4, 2009 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!

by VolBrian on Jul 4, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i already made my point..

But ill take the bait…

Coached on opposite sides of the ball – Chiz has been a defensive guy his entire career. Played LB at Florida. Various defensive responsibilities at MTSU, Central Florida, Auburn and Texas. Kiffin has been an offensive guy his entire college career. Played QB at Fresno State. Various offensive responsibilities at Fresno State, Colorado State and USC.

How does this not make them similar? I know i know..different sides of the ball.. BUT before they got their ist HC shot…their were both successful as coordinators at top NCAA schools…

Chiz has no pro experience. Kiffin had two NFL gigs. He was the Quality Control Coach for the Jacksonville Jaguars. He had responsibility for breaking down game film (the scout) on the upcoming opponents, practice assistant and various other tasks. Kiffin also served as the head coach for the Oakland Raiders & the insane Al Davis for 1 year and four games.

hmm. ok ill agree that Chizik has no NFL experience…again. If you go back a read what i said…I never said both situations were EXACTLY alike..just very similar…

4) Kiffin hired an amazingly deep staff with outstanding success, including NFL experience. Chiz did not. None of Chiz’s assistants have sniffed the NFL – except Rocker as a Hall of Fame player. Kiffin has the best Defensive Coordinator in the NFL, Monte Kiffin; Oregeron (Saints); Cheney (Rams); and, Cregg (Raiders).

What i love about this is statement is that all i have heard and read in our little debate thread was that NFL coaching experience does not correlate into wins in college..BUT now you guys want to throw NFL coaching experience in everyones faces…hmm It either does or it doesnt…

And! which HC actually has experience in coaching in the SEC?

I actually feel that Chizik asembled one heck of a staff, for what he was allowed to pay for. UT paid big bucks for its staff. And i know you guys are all high on Old Kiffin but his defenses haven’t been the most dominate in the NFL for a while…and the BEST DC in the NFL…PLEASE!!!!! Maybe a few years ago but not now…Oh and BTW…Shula had NFL coaching experience and you see how much that worked for Bama…and do we really need to get into how many coaches came from the NFL and have failed…and vice versa?

Following loved coaches is the claim. Not so much. Fulmer was loved and respected at player at UT, as a long-time assistant; and, then in the early and middle parts of his head coaching career as he built UT into a national championship winner and a consistent competitor for the SEC crown. Manning and others swear their allegiance to him and still have great fondness for the man they identify as UT Football. Tuberville (intentional) burned his bridges on his way out at Old Mississippi and was neither a player nor a long-standing part of Auburn. Phil’s teams did not perform as well on the field in his later years, so he wrapped up his time at UT. The exit was difficult but he will be honored appropriately. Tuber was welcome as a hired gun and Auburn kept him around as long as he won, but I don’t think there will be any Tommy Days at Auburn

Again, they aren’t exactly the same but come on man…you are really reaching…

Sure Fulmer “stepped” down but only because was going to be fired if he didn’t…Tubbs was fired…Both were only a few seasons removed from SEC success…Didnt Fulmer take UT to the SEC CG a few years back? And didn’t tubbs just come off a 6 year winning streak of the tide? Weren’t both very much loved by the fans but yet the fans knew they needed to go? Didn’t both coaches bring their team out of the dulldrums and back in the spotlight? Couldn’t both departures be described as messy?

Again, maybe im wrong but UT seems to in a very similar situation as AU…The only thing that really separates the two would be…their past recruiting season..UT undoubtedly did MUCH better than AU..BUT both teams have a long way to go. Kiffin and Chizik have a lot to prove…come from recent failures…somewhat similar pasts and both teams biggest rival have a few years head start on them..

They might not the be same but the similarities are just too much to be ignored…

Both failed at their last coaching job
Both have many reasons on why they couldn’t succeed
Both were past successful coordinators…respectively
Both are replacing well liked and once successful HC’s who left their school under scrutiny
Both have major rebuilding jobs in front of them
Both are first time HC’s in the SEC
Both teams went 5-7 last year..

by bammer on Jul 4, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whoa big guy...

This:

What i love about this is statement is that all i have heard and read in our little debate thread was that NFL coaching experience does not correlate into wins in college..BUT now you guys want to throw NFL coaching experience in everyones faces…hmm It either does or it doesnt…

Is not what you’ve heard, but it’s what you’ve said. No UT fan thinks that the fact Lane Kiffin was in the NFL is going to make him successful. We are defending him against your argument that:

….He failed at Oakland..what makes us think he won’t at UT

You can read my post for more on that fallacy of an argument.

As for the NFL in this context, MP is not saying they will be successsful because they were in the NFL, he is merely pointing out that Lane Kiffin hired some people who have coached at the highest level along with hiring some of the best recruiters in the country in the persons of Gran and Thompson.

The only person of note that Chizik has hired is Trooper Taylor.

Now, as for Monte Kiffin. Simply look up the statistical comparison for defense over his tenure at Tampa against other DC’s who were at their positions even half that amount of time and you will see that he was easily the NFL’s best DC. I know you won’t do that though, you prefer to spout off nonsensical arguments in the hopes of just getting a rise out of us. So, since I seem to have fallen into that trap here, I’m off to the lake……….

Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!

by VolBrian on Jul 4, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Appreciate the thoughtful reply, Bammer

I’m pointing out the differences:

1) offensive guy vs. defensive guy – that’s a huge difference in philosophy and mindset. How each addresses their shortcoming on the other side of the ball is another difference. Kiffin’s smart enough to round himself out with the best DC in pro football. Denying that Monte is an NFL legend and a top DC weakens your argument, Bammer. Monte was ranked in the top 10 in points allowed and total yards in 11 of his 13 seasons at Tampa Bay. Chiz’s OC was coaching in high school 4-5 years ago.

2) NFL HC vs. College HC – that’s a big difference as well for their first HC spot. Iowa State isn’t a premier job. Neither is the Raiders (anymore) but it is a shot in the NFL. And don’t forget the Jags…

3) Staff composition being completely different was the point – not how well it translates to college. It wasn’t my original point, but Kiffin’s guys have also had success in college. Couple of examples… Coach O – one of the best D line coaches in the country at USC; Cheney had Drew Brees and top 10 offenses at Purdue; and, Monte won NC’s at Nebraska a long time ago (only b/c he has been dominant & successful in the NFL for so long).

4) I believe Bama is paying more for its staff than UT is for Kiffin and his crew. If Auburn doesn’t invest in its staff to keep up, then that’s another difference and foolish on their part for such a big budget program.

5) Tubby was no an alum, player or deeply loved (except as a mercenary) – not well loved as you claim; Phil was the opposite – we gave up on Phil when he was past his prime based on team performance, but he is viewed as an integral part of UT football. Not a reach at all.

As for the last three points, I made them in my post (see Similarities). We agree on that.

Ah, common ground.

by memphispete on Jul 4, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have an idea!

Let’s wait until the end of the season when Kiffin and Chizik have actually down something on the field.

PLEASE tell me I’m not alone on that.

36-0

by Bamabrave4 on Jul 4, 2009 9:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

go read the

Blast thread and you will see i said that very thing..

by bammer on Jul 4, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

done not down

36-0

by Bamabrave4 on Jul 4, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for your comment

I believe I said, to Todd/RBR over on your Bama site btw, that the jury is still out on Kiffin. It’s obvious the reason I said that is because he hasn’t coached a game at UT yet.

The claim repeatedly raised by bammer on this site is that Chiz and Kiffin were the same solution to schools in similar circumstances. We are doing all the we can before the season starts to examine that question. We are discussing their backgrounds, their staffs and the circumstances under which they came into their positions – noting the similarities and, more importantly, the differences.

We can either wait 8 months to look back at the answer or we can fill our long slow summer days before the season starts with conversations like these. I admit it’s a toss-up.

by memphispete on Jul 5, 2009 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs