Talking Points: Bryce Brown, Brian Butler, and the NCAA
As much as I'd like to spend the Talking Points waxing poetically about the fall practices, including information about the rising stars on the defensive line, the hunger to win across the whole team,and Erik Ainge's struggles to advance in New York, the big news is obviously the NCAA's intiial ruling that Bryce Brown is currently ineligible. To that end, I've gathered as much information as I could on the case to try to make some more sense of it.
The focus of the investigation was on fundraising activities that Brian Butler engaged in for the sake of a tour of schools in the south for his players. From the Wichita Eagle:
Brown was one of 10 players who went on a summer 2007 tour to college campuses in the southern part of the country. Butler billed it as an academic tour. Players on that tour included Brown and his brother, Arthur, who is at Miami (Fla.); Rose Hill graduate Blaize Foltz, now at Texas Christian; Northwest graduate Chris Harper, who transferred from Oregon to Kansas State; and 2008 Top 11 selection Jaydan Bird, a Conway Springs graduate now at Oklahoma.
...
Butler said money was raised for that tour by hosting barbecues at Wal-Mart and Sam's, a fund-raiser at Texas Roadhouse, as well as money given by four donors whom Butler did not identify.
"I deemed it initially, and marketed it that way, as an academic tour," Butler said. "I know you can't get money donated when it has anything to do with athletics....
That is the heart of the issue. It's worth noting that, at the time of this writing, only Bryce Brown has been targeted by the NCAA for any disciplinary action. This implies that either Bryce received extra-special benefits on this tour (as a sophomore in high school) that nobody else received, or that the NCAA is making a statement.
Brian Butler believes it's a statement by the NCAA. He was on a radio interview Wednesday morning with KGSO of Wichita. Some Volnation members liveblogged it here if you're interested. In it, Butler asserts that the investigation that ended in Brown's ineligibility was birthed in this New York Times article, which painted Butler in a rather dim light. It's an article that made Doc Saturday change his opinion on Butler.
We had a roundup of the Brian Butler articles and discussion last spring that you may want to revisit. The NCAA investigation has been over for a while, and they have just now gotten round to issuing judgment, so the real information of concern is the information we knew back then. Again, if you're interested, I recommend revisiting the articles from the spring to better understand the context.
Potential Players, Butler's organization, has issued a statement regarding the investigation. Here is the link, but from the article, here is a list of the players affected by the fundraiser:
Here is a list of players who have been involved with Brian Butler's training, or camps:
2009 Class and School Attended
Jaydan Bird-University of Oklahoma, Bryce Brown-University of Tennessee, Devin Gfeller-Kansas St. University, Wil Richards-University of Nebraska, Riley Spencer-University of Kansas, Forrest Stucky-Pittsburg St., Huldon Tharp-University of Kansas, Kevin Young-University of Kansas, Aaron Wilson-Butler County, Jeff Page-Butler County , Garrett Kraft-Coffeyville C.C., Justin Puthoff-University of Kansas, Jake Snodgrass-McPherson,
NFL
Kamerion Wimbley-Cleveland Browns (2001)
Players Currently in 4 year Colleges
Tysyn Hartman-Kansas State University (2007), Frank Delarue-Kansas State University (2007), Matt Bowie-University of Kansas (2007) , Arthur Brown Jr.-University of Miami (2008), Chris Harper-University of Oregon (2008), Chase Meija-Northern Illinois University (2008), Blaize Foltz-Texas Christian University (2008), D.J. Breathett-University of Oklahoma (2008)
Scholarships Commits for 2007 -2008 Camp Participants
Blake Bell-University of Oklahoma(2010 Commit), Devin Hedgepeth-Oklahoma St. University(2010 Commit), Nathan Stanley-University of Mississippi, Ethan Powell-Missouri Southern, Brayden Burris-Iowa State University, Brock Bell-Emporia State University, Bart Voegeli-University of Kansas, Austin Yeargain-Southwestern Oklahoma St. University, Romero Cotton-University of Nebraska , Garrick Williams-Wake Forest University, Jake Morse-Missouri State, Trey Stead-Emporia State University.
With a list that extensive, it's very difficult to believe that only Bryce Brown is worthy of NCAA attention, if there is indeed some foul play afoot. More details will come out in time, and perhaps there is information that is not yet public about this incident that will clarify the NCAA's actions, but for right now, the NCAA appears intent on making an example out of Bryce Brown in order to create the precedent they need to shut down handlers like Brian Butler.
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40 comments
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Comments
Question
Would Bryce Brown need to repay the money for these camps? Because, if so, does he have the money? And if he doesn’t … then what?
by bobo_the_vol on Aug 20, 2009 7:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Assumedly, yes. Bryce would have to repay personally.
That would put him squarely into student loan territory. If he chose not to repay (and assuming this is the whole issue), then the NCAA would probably keep him listed as ineligible until he did repay.
by Hooper on Aug 20, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh so he takes out a loan for a couple grand, tops.
Hes going to be making tens of millions in a couple of years anyways.
RIP Steve McNair (1973 - 2009) Retire #9!
Member of the Committee to Keep Keith Bulluck.
Eric Berry for Heisman!!
by Pride of the Southland on Aug 20, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This implies that either Bryce received extra-special benefits on this tour (as a sophomore in high school) that nobody else received,
Why does that matter? I mean, if he took improper benefits as a sophomore- its still taking improper benefits…I guess what im saying is…whats the difference in breaking the rules as a sophomore or breaking them as a senior?
Scoring against Alabama will be like birthing a child: rare, painful, and messy. - The Ghost of Jay Cutler
by bammer on Aug 20, 2009 8:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't speak for anyone else,
but I think the statement is reflecting the notion that Tennessee was not involved in any of this. Plus, it’s giving us a time frame for reference to where the NCAA is looking.
If I’m wrong, hoop, I apologize.
by ChattVol on Aug 20, 2009 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure.
If he took improper benefits, there you go. My big question is: what about all of the other athletes who went on these tours? There is no indication that Brown did something that the other athletes didn’t. Is the NCAA planning on investigating them as well? If so, why didn’t they do this wholecloth, when it would have been most convenient?
I’m the last person you’ll find defending UT (or anybody affiliated with UT, as in this case) if they did something wrong. If Bryce messed up, he messed up. But the way this is unfolding does not make sense with what is known. Either some very significant details are being left out of the public eye, or the NCAA is targeting Bryce specifically. And the only reason for that is because he was such a high-profile recruit.
There is speculation floating around that one of UT’s rivals turned rat on Bryce in order to give UT a setback. Most of that figures it was an attempt to get back at Lane for his earlier-in-the-year comments. Meh. The investigation started before anybody seriously considered that Bryce could end up at UT, so the sntich theory really doesn’t hold water at the moment. And to be blunt: as much as people would like to make Meyer the goat in this, there just isn’t anything to support the theory out there at the moment.
So until information comes out to change the equation, it looks like this is the NCAA using Bryce as a way to get after Brian Butler (who they can’t go after directly) because they don’t like him. Whether it’s founded or not, I don’t know. But they’re only focusing on Butler’s most visible patron.
by Hooper on Aug 20, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All that may be the case, but...
… didn’t Scroggins mention the specter of this investigation as a strike against UT in his recruitment immediately after his trip to Gainesville? Meyer may not have initiated the investigation by ratting us out, but he sure as hell used it against us.
(And I know that type of stuff goes on all the time in recruiting, but I am fiercely protective of my right to hate Urban Meyer and I will defend it to the death.)
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
by birdjam on Aug 20, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i actually find it quite
ironic that a UT rival would turn UT in for recruiting violations….you know what they say about pay back :)
Scoring against Alabama will be like birthing a child: rare, painful, and messy. - The Ghost of Jay Cutler
by bammer on Aug 20, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't
care to debate the merits of this particular case with documented cheaters like bammers, HOWEVER, what you said above is completely off base and merely illustrates your ignorance. I don’t know who has to explain it to you or how many different ways, but here we go: UT DID NOT COMMIT ANY VIOLATIONS AT ALL IN THIS CASE, NONE, NADA, NOTHING, ZIP, ZERO, ZILCH.
And you absolutely may quote me when you crawl back to RBR and post how delusional we are.
So, no pay back happened here, if someone was turned it, it happened LONG before Bryce Brown ever committed to Tennessee and quite possible before CLK started talking about Florida.
Piss off troll…
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
by VolBrian on Aug 20, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well Hooper
you siad it before that all the facts aren’t out yet, so we will have to wait and see. The only reason i can think that Brown’s name is the only one being talked about is due to his drama filled recruitment. Perhaps if he hadn’t acted like a douche 7 months ago, the NCAA would have never looked into it…that said..
My question above was a little misguided…I was under the impression that some UT guys here were saying that due to him being a sophomore, he was just to young and he didn’t know what was going on…i went back to see if i could find comments and couldn’t find them…maybe my crimson colored glasses are missing??
Scoring against Alabama will be like birthing a child: rare, painful, and messy. - The Ghost of Jay Cutler
by bammer on Aug 20, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe you've been acting like a douche well before 7 months ago
_________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you
by kidbourbon on Aug 20, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps...my douchery isn't the question here...
but if he didn’t want the NCAA to snoop around, he should have thought twice…It does sound like the NCAA is reaching a bit…They seem to be going after some really weak infractions..from FSU’s “cheating”, Bama’s “textbook scandal” and now this…if the NCAA wants to flex their muscles do it over something that is an actual violation..
Scoring against Alabama will be like birthing a child: rare, painful, and messy. - The Ghost of Jay Cutler
by bammer on Aug 20, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
FSU’s "cheating", Bama’s "textbook scandal" and now this
I knew it was just a matter of time before he tried to equate BB’s activities as a sophomore in high school with a multitude of Bama athletes stealing textbooks. It is your above use of the word “misguided” that is ironic here.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
by VolBrian on Aug 20, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He should have thought twice about what?
Decommitting? Looking at different schools?
_________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you
by kidbourbon on Aug 20, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It probably has less to do with Brown and more to do with Butler.
The NCAA has a chance to potentially stop what’s gone on in basketball recruiting by nipping Butler’s operation before it really gets rolling. This – at least with what I’ve seen so far – is an investigation on Butler’s methods, not on UT’s recruitment. Since Brown is the most premier recruit Butler’s touched so far, he’s the guy the NCAA gets to go after.
Eric Berry for sending the guy who wins the Heisman spinning 720 degrees in the air at the podium - or for intercepting it and returning it to where it rightfully belongs
by Graysnail on Aug 20, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I hate Doug Gottlieb...
… he had a pretty funny line on ESPN radio yesterday afternoon. Listing off all the schools Bryce visited during hsi recruitment, he said, “Forget about U.S. News & World Report – ask BRYCE BROWN who is the #1 party school in the nation!”
Of course, Gottlieb probably stole that line from his roommate.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
by birdjam on Aug 20, 2009 8:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
HIYO!
Official MCM Hater!
Retire #9!
by gramsey712 on Aug 20, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ridiculous
Nothing like a good old shafting by the NCAA to quell your enthusiasm for the next few weeks until real football starts….
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
by VolBrian on Aug 20, 2009 9:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Btw
Practice was cancelled yesterday, so two straight weeks I’ve been unable to attend and report. I’ll get to a practice one of these days….
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
by VolBrian on Aug 20, 2009 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All of this convinces me
That the NCAA is the most intellectually bankrupt organization in these our United States.
_________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you
by kidbourbon on Aug 20, 2009 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
finally
something we agree on…
Scoring against Alabama will be like birthing a child: rare, painful, and messy. - The Ghost of Jay Cutler
by bammer on Aug 20, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, we agree that the "textbook scandal" was also WAY overblown.
_________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you
by kidbourbon on Aug 20, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
They can step in line behind Congress over the last 10-15 yearsish.
by Hooper on Aug 20, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
definitely
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
by VolBrian on Aug 20, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Congress doesn't have the power to enforce, though
Edge: NCAA
_________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you
by kidbourbon on Aug 20, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ooh. Good point.
And we can blast them here without worrying about the ‘no politics’ rule. That’s gotta be worth something, right?
by Hooper on Aug 20, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't think
there’s a way to be who Butler was to this kid and do it 100% clean. There are a thousand lines you have to stay on the right side of, and even if he didn’t cross any big ones…it’s just not going to be perfect. He can chalk it up to “trying to help the kid”…but one wonders what Bryce thinks of him in relation to all of that right now…
Will - Rocky Top Talk
by Will on Aug 20, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Calling Hooper (re-post from previous BB comment thread)
Okay, so I have read through some of the older posts (and gate 21’s post) on Brian Butler. All of those posts amount to a conversation on the topics of (1) whether Brian Butler is doing something bad, and if so (2) what can the NCAA — or anybody else — do to stop him.
I have a different question. It seems to me to that, because the NCAA is unable to do anything about Butler, they are going after Brown instead. But going after him for what? It appears that the "lost amateur status" angle is the best they could come up with. I don’t think this passes the straight-face test, and other posters appear to be agreeing with, so I don’t think I am unreasonable in my analysis of that.
So, finally, to my question. If the NCAA is taking action against a player in what appears to be a totally arbitrary and capricious manner, what can be done to stop them? I know virtually nothing about NCAA rules and regulations. I know virtually nothing about the NCAA generally (what type of entity is it? Is it essentially a contract between schools, a la BCS?). But I have to believe that their decisions are reviewable by an Article III court.
I think at this point, we should turn the conversation from "how can we stop Brian Butler" to "how can we stop the NCAA." The NCAA, in trying to stop the evil of Brian Butler, has come up with a solution that does nothing to remedy the problem and, in fact, is simply an injustice in and of itself.
_________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you
by kidbourbon on Aug 20, 2009 11:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure you saw my reply there, but to merge the threads, I'll copy/paste here:
Right now, I think that the ‘punish-Butler-via-Brown’ theory fits the available evidence the best. We don’t have the information necessary to know whether there is any merit to the charge that Bryce’s amateurism was compromised, but I am beginning to suspect that it’s more a matter of rhetoric (particularly the semantics between an ‘academic’ tour and an ‘athletic’ tour) than anything else.
But as to what can be done, that’s dicey. The short answer is to file a civil suit regarding a contract dispute (specifically the contract between the NCAA and Bryce Brown, and whether Brown’s status should be considered ‘amateur’ under the terms of the contract). It’s not a favorable direction for the NCAA because they would be at the disadvantage on any interpretation of ambiguity. Another possibility – depending on the hidden facts – would be a constraint of trade suit from Butler. That’s waaaaay beyond me, though, so I’ll only call it a possibility.
But after that, this gets really dicey when compared to the NCAA’s stance that athletes not get paid. Right now, the NCAA makes a boatload of cash off of these athletes, including the EA Sports video games, but doesn’t allow the athletes to profit directly. It gets even more difficult to explain why they won’t allow athletes to profit off of their abilities prior to their signing on with the NCAA.
[Well, that merges things and lets me talk twice as much!]
by Hooper on Aug 20, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My question is
If this tour was just part of college campuses, how can it possibly be related to football? As Butler said, he knew that you couldn’t get any money donated if it has anything to do with athletics, so I’m going to assume that on this tour of campuses the players didn’t meet with coaches or get any unusual insight to the sports facilities. If they did, then what Brian Butler did was wrong. But if they didn’t, I don’t see how this could be wrong with the given information. As much as I’ve heard, the NCAA is just citing these fundraiser events as the reason that they can deny Bryce’s amateur status, but they have yet to tell us how these things had anything to do with athletics which, according to Butler, would have made it wrong.
This really just seems to me to be a case of the NCAA wanting to get rid of people like Butler, not really finding any way to punish him now so they came up with some hodge-podge technicality to jab him and get people to red flag him until they can come up with a rule against what it is that Butler does. It’s like they are punishing the two for breaking a rule that wasn’t a rule at the time but the NCAA wishes was a rule. Which is completely and utterly ridiculous.
by bobo_the_vol on Aug 20, 2009 8:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good gosh
I leave for one afternoon and miss all the fun.
Official MCM Hater!
FREE BRYCE BROWN!
by gramsey712 on Aug 21, 2009 8:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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