Killing the playing-not-to-win meme
The "Lane Kiffin played to keep it close, not to win" meme is getting beyond ridiculous and must be stopped. (That's actually a good post, the first part notwithstanding; hey, even the best of 'em fall prey to propaganda.)
Memo to the world: To win, you must first be close to winning.
That is all.
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I don't think we'll win that battle
To do so, we have to presume that Florida fans are reasonable enough to correlate their pre-game expectations with their actual game performance as well as what they said about Tennessee’s ability to win with what actually happened.
In other words, they would have to be rational. Hahaha.
Furthermore, no matter how many simple and phoenetic ways it is explained to them, their B.T.O must be playing too load in the IROC for them to understand that Tennessee had no shot to win by putting the game on Crompton’s shoulders. Not in the first quarter, and certainly not with 6 minutes left in the game. As soon as we went downfield, it was picked off again.
And lastly, and this is just an innocent question really, but isn’t TSK supposed to be the SEC blog of SB Nation. It’s got a heavy Florida bias if you ask me. Nothing against it, and I know it’s because Year 2 runs it, but a little more objectivity out of SB Nation’s SEC blog would be nice.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
But it's not only Gator fans who are saying this...
… I was in the car a lot yesterday and heard several national radio shows talking about how Kiffin played not to win. And if all you are talking about is dragging out the time between plays, then I guess I can see where they are coming from, from that standpoint. But even local people like John and Jimmy have been criticizing Kiffin for not “opening the offense up” in the second half. Which is all well and good with the 20/20 vision of hindsight, but they are leaving out their genius plan for how to magically make Crompton able to pass the ball. We were moving the ball against Florida with our alleged “play to lose” gameplan. Once we tried to “open it up,” it resulted in Gator interceptions. This “Kiffin wasn’t playing to win” nonsense is just ridiculous.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Yeah
And a lot of the national media people are doing that for two reasons.
1. They’re taking Florida’s side and believing Urban Meyer because they still think he’s just poor old Urbie getting bullied by big bad Lane Kiffin.
2. They’re doing a lot of CYA right here instead of the crow-eating they should be doing. They all said Florida would win by 50, it din’t happen, and now they have to find a reason they were wrong. In steps Urbie with the perfect excuse. Now they look like they knew what they were talking about before the game even though they were still way off.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
I'm a little more Rayndian (Rayndy?) about the media motives.
Florida is a huge cash cow for the media if they keep on winning. A loss or two, and they’re merely one of several very good teams this year, but undefeated opens the doors for the GOAT talk. An undefeated Florida will, over the course of the season, sell far more media interest than even a 1-loss NC Florida. And now that Oklahoma, OSU, and USC are down, there are already very few remaining undefeateds left to ride.
Tennessee, on the other hand, has proven great for media business regardless of game outcome; they just focus on Lane’s comments. So, from a business and profit motive standpoint, the media is far better off with a Florida win. The more dominant the better, as both memes get play that way. So, even though they won, the closeness of the game and the fact that a last-minute comeback was actually believable until the interception hurt one of their talking points and risked losing another talking point entirely.
(In case you didn’t figure it out, I see sports media as nothing more than a business selling a product. I have no problem with that; sports is entertainment and they’re entertainment. But I don’t believe for a second that they’re concerned about accuracy of conjecture over marketability.)
by David Hooper on Sep 23, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good, accurate summary as well.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
Good points, all
Maybe ESPN can arrange for us to play them again somehow like Kiffin wants to.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Your last paragraph
Absolutely on point. I was quite excited that there was an SEC blog when it came out. But the anti-tennessee bias has been consistently conspicuous from the very beginning. If you are going to do an SEC blog, you sorta have to take that out of the equation…that is, if you expect to get traffic.
_________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you
Exactly
For awhile I didn’t even know Alligator Army existed. I thought TSK was the Florida blog for SB Nation.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
AA has some pretty good writing, and is very rational.
I’m surprised they don’t get more attention, even though I know it’s due to being under the shadow of Big Brother Orson.
by David Hooper on Sep 23, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Must be hard to compete with EDSBS. They still coming to SB Nation?
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
They're already on board.
I don’t know the details, but I believe that Orson is able to keep his site appearance as before. But Orson now has his site administration outsourced to SBN and gets his articles featured on their main digs. At least, that’s how I understand the arrangement.
by David Hooper on Sep 23, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
To win you must first be close to winning
Well put
_________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you
And to get closer to winning when you’re not, you must pick up your pace.
Tennessee’s shorten the game plan was absolutely the perfect thing to do to have a chance to win. A smaller number of plays increases the variance for the game, and increased variance is helpful for underdogs. Here’s Chris Brown from Smart Football talking about variance.
Eventually though, when you’re down a few scores with a quarter and a half to go, you have to pick up the pace to score enough points to win. Tennessee never did that, and that’s where the criticism comes from. It’s not about throwing the ball deep, because that was obviously not a path to winning for UT. It’s about doing a hurry up offense and hoping that Florida would commit enough mistakes to get Tennessee back in the game.
Tim Tebow provided one of those mistakes with his fumble (an excellent strip by the defender, by the way), but the ensuing touchdown came with 8 minutes to go in the game. It’s tough for anyone, much less an underdog who can’t throw deep, to overcome a 10 point deficit in that little amount of time. If there was more time on the clock, then who knows what happens? Maybe Florida tightens up, makes more mistakes, and Tennessee might send it to overtime or even win it.
But without a no huddle, hurry up offense, that wasn’t going to happen. With that fact fairly apparent, it begs the question of why Tennessee didn’t employ one.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
Maybe...
… maybe a sinkhole opens up and swallows Tebow on the field. (Joke, obviously God would never allow that to happen…)
I appreciate all of the advice Urban Meyer, Gator fans, and the national media are giving Kiffin for how to run his team. I really do. Kiffin isn’t very experienced as a head coach and someone as successful as Urban Meyer probably has a lot to offer a young coach at this level. That being said, I believe I will defer to Kiffin and his staff on decisions involving the personnel and playcalling on his team. Jonathan Crompton scares the crap out of me when he has the full play clock to wrap his brain around what we are trying to do. Going no-huddle and “opening up the offense” with more passing sound like a recipe for disaster.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
In his post game show
Kiffin mentioned that their no huddle offense primarily consists of 3 wide receiver sets… and judging by the practice reports from this and past weeks, the coaches really aren’t very confident with wide receiver play at the moment. Which then begs the question why not install a no huddle with more power based looks… to that I’d have to speculate that theres just not enough practice time to install a whole new package in one week while your preparing to go on the road against the number 1 team in the country. Just speculation but it does give some reason behind the lack of a no huddle.
"The man who complains about the way the ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it."
by Getoffmyvols on Sep 23, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
He also mentioned something
about Florida’s defensive scheme against the three-wide/hurry-up passing game, where they go to that formation where they don’t show any down linemen that’s been used before. There’s little to no chance Crompton and our new offensive linemen were ready to handle something like that.
Will - Rocky Top Talk
by Will Shelton on Sep 23, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
But without a no huddle, hurry up offense, that wasn’t going to happen. With that fact fairly apparent, it begs the question of why Tennessee didn’t employ one.
Because they don’t have a hurry-up offense ready to deploy against a high-caliber defense on the road. Even the best offensive schemes rarely get installed over the first offseason (Auburn is a very curious exception so far), and getting your base offense down is more important than the situational material. We still have problems in the passing game that need to be worked out before we can nail down the hurry-up.
Remember that Kiffin was still in the huddle calling plays through much of our fall scrimmages. Do you honestly think that the last two weeks of fall camp plus the first three weeks of the season is enough to get from Kiffin in the huddle to an effective no-huddle? 8 interceptions into the season, I’m guessing the answer is no.
Short answer: Tennessee didn’t go no-huddle because Tennessee can’t go no-huddle. A slow, effective offense is still a better idea than a fast train wreck. As regards the article, the main point was that the David could try to increase the potential for gain at cost of increasing the potential for cost. So now it becomes a risk-reward analysis. How plausible were the rewards for going no-huddle, pass-wacky for Tennessee when receivers are messing up routes and the qb is a Florida-proclaimed catfish? How does that compare to the risk?
I get the concept, but it involves a few assumptions about the offense that weren’t necessarily valid. After all, if Tennessee’s supposed best receiver can’t keep his feet in bounds when open in the end zone, who can be trusted to run their routes right in a no-huddle that’s probably not even implemented yet?
by David Hooper on Sep 23, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Thanks
I didn’t know any of that. That would have been more helpful than just “because they weren’t close to winning.”
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
Well
You’re apparently the only Florida fan who can understand such a complex thought. Everyone else dismisses it out of hand. Hence the simple statement from Joel. I suppose he thought it would be easier to comprehend.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
To be fair,
I don’t like that answer at all. I wanted them to go pass-wacky, and I’m pretty sure I made some comments in the game thread to that effect. I am a bit of a fan of the high-risk, high-reward behavior, especially late in games. But it’s one of those situations where you have to believe that the risks presented come from the other side of the ball, not from your own team.
I’d be curious to see if the Vols were running the play clock down to its final few seconds during the latter half of the fourth quarter. If so, then it does get harder to deny the allegations.
But don’t worry about knowing those details; that’s our job. ;-)
by David Hooper on Sep 23, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Care to address this?
And lastly, and this is just an innocent question really, but isn’t TSK supposed to be the SEC blog of SB Nation. It’s got a heavy Florida bias if you ask me. Nothing against it, and I know it’s because Year 2 runs it, but a little more objectivity out of SB Nation’s SEC blog would be nice
.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
I’m a fan. I get emotional sometimes. It comes out both in my writing and in my writing selection.
I don’t do it intentionally, but I know it happens. I appreciate y’all calling me out on it, because I’ll never notice if you don’t. I try to spread things around, but I’m naturally drawn to writing about what I know best the most. I’ll try to do better in the future.
As for running the place, I don’t. It’s cocknfire’s digs mostly, and he just lets me throw in my two cents.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
That's understandable
And I appreciate you being up front about it. It just seems to me (i.e. my opinion) that a more unbiased SEC blog would have more credibility with other leagues and draw in more contributions from around the league.
I believe that some other people here have the same impression of TSK.
However, please interpret that as constructive criticism only. The blog is a good one, just a little orange and blue imo.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
Well, we’re always looking for more voices to add to the crowd. It’s tough to cover the whole conference equally with two SEC East fans running the show. We just added froberts, formerly of the LSU blog Pelican State Sports, to get some SEC West flavor in and he’s been contributing once a week.
If you know of any good Tennessee writers looking for an outlet, we’d be glad to consider them.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
I was thinking about that.
I hadn’t checked your staff listing in a while, but having a couple of West division guys on hand should at least help the perception.
by David Hooper on Sep 23, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait, you're looking for writers?
Eric Berry for sending the guy who wins the Heisman spinning 720 degrees in the air at the podium - or for intercepting it and returning it to where it rightfully belongs
by Chris Pendley on Sep 23, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Another defense for TSK
Is that Florida is the No. 1 in the nation. There’s more positive national interest in them. The interest in Tennessee nationally is still rather negative. We’re hoping to change that. But post selection I think is probably dictated more by what’s popular at the moment.
Rocky Top Talk
by Joel Hollingsworth on Sep 23, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
True
Didn’t think of it that way.
However, if WHEN Tennessee is number one, I certainly expect more orange and less blue from those guys!!
;-)
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
heh
More orange for them necessarily correlates to more of the blues.
Rocky Top Talk
by Joel Hollingsworth on Sep 23, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Repeat - down 10 with the ball. 6 min left. Just scored a TD RUNNING THE BALL. Only took 2 min.
The math still works for a shot a winning by running. And, the passing game failed miserably.
By the way, Year2, on the TSK thing – change the name on your blog to something Florida-related because the bias is overwhelming.
Completely agree with the love fest at TSK
you can scroll down the archives and I would love to see that % run of posts about florida vs. other teams……………it makes me sick
Great Game Hokies! What a battle!
by The Voice of Reason on Sep 23, 2009 10:49 AM EDT reply actions
Living up to your handle there for sure...
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
Some math
hooper:
I’d be curious to see if the Vols were running the play clock down to its final few seconds during the latter half of the fourth quarter. If so, then it does get harder to deny the allegations.
I don’t know of any way other than watching the film exactly how deep into the play clock Tennessee went on their final drive, but we know from the play-by-play that the Vols took over with 6 minutes left and ran eight plays before calling timeout almost exactly 4 minutes later. That’s 2 plays per minute. If we break it down further and say that each play took an average of 10 seconds (maybe generous, but it makes the math easier and I have no idea how long the average play lasts) and a total of 1:20, that means 2:40 ran off the clock between those first seven plays. 160 seconds / 7 = very close to 23 seconds of game clock between each play. That already strikes me as a ton of time for a team down two scores and less than six minutes to play, but it’s actually worse than that—six of those seven plays resulted in temporary clock stoppages either by going out-of-bounds or gaining a first down. On average, the Vol offense—again, down 10 with under six minutes to go—likely took somewhere in the neighborhood of 27-30 seconds of real time to snap the ball.
Which is why, as much as I respect the work you guys do here, Joel and hooper—in fact, because of that respect—I am absolutely, totally baffled as to the acceptance of Kiffin’s end-game strategy/clock management. Like Year2, I will certainly agree that Kiffin’s gameplan for the first 54 minutes of the game was the best one he could have formulated given the limitations at quarterback. But on that last drive, Kiffin has no choice—there’s no way in heaven and earth that an offense operating at the pace above could score, get a stop, and score again in 6 minutes. (At the pace above, in fact, the Vols would have run out of time crossing the Florida 25 or so.)
I’m well aware that the chances of Crompton leading the Vols to victory in a no-huddle hurry-up offense were very close to zero, but the chances of Tennessee earning the win in the same offense they’d run all game weren’t close to zero—they were, mathematically, zero. I can’t say for certain whether Kiffin was deluding himself into thinking his snail-paced offense could still get the job done or whether he consciously chose to keep the clock running just to get the hell out of there … but I don’t see how you can argue that the complete lack of urgency shown by the Vols on that final drive at least gave the appearance like Kiffin had given up and was more concerned with the score than winning the game. I’m sorry, but there’s a perfectly good reason the “Kiffin played to keep it close” meme has the legs it has.
As for the idea that Kiffin just didn’t have a hurry-up offense to turn to …well, first, whatever the call or personnel on the field, you can always get into and out of the huddle as quickly as possible, and I for one didn’t see the Vols doing that (or see it in the math above). And would you guys be making excuses for Kiffin not having a hurry-up offense ready if the Vols had taken over with 2 minutes left, down by 7, and huddled up until time ran out as they reached midfield? Because in terms of necessary urgency, there’s not much difference between that situation and the one that actually happened.
Again, I don’t blame you guys at all for being happy with Kiffin’s overall game-planning or the Vols’ overall effort. But I just don’t see how there’s any defending Kiffin’s choices at the end of the game.
Thanks for the comments, Jerry
They’re much-appreciated. I’m afraid I don’t have the time to do what it would take to confirm your theory, but I do have a few quick thoughts.
I’m not sure you can just use math to really assess the situation. And aren’t there new clock rules that keep the clock running even when you go out of bounds now, at least before some magic time-remaining mark is met? I’m not sure.
Regardless, here’s the main point: while watching that game, I never — not once — wondered why they weren’t hurrying up. And again, I haven’t looked back at the nearly 2000-comment game thread, either, and don’t have time to, but I don’t recall anyone ever feeling that way. (Although, now that I think about it, I have some vague recollection that someone at some point said something like “if we don’t score here,” it’s over.) But the point remains, I never once thought we needed to be going faster.
Bottom line, we may be able to go back and show that Kiffin mismanaged the clock, but I never felt during the game that he was, and regardless, I don’t see any way you can prove the man’s intentions.
Rocky Top Talk
by Joel Hollingsworth on Sep 24, 2009 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Excellent point Joel
I actually remember feeling the exact opposite than “we need to hurry it up” in that a feeling of dread came over me when I knew Kiffin had no choice but to throw it downfield. I.e. the intentional grounding call that wasn’t and the interception
I never did feel like we needed to hurry it up though.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
According to the ESPN play-by-play...
… Kiffin called a timeout to stop the clock on third and long on Florida’s last drive of the game (with just over a minute remaining in the game.) How does that fit into the whole “Kiffin wasn’t trying to win” argument? Wouldn’t he have let the clock keep running there if he really were just trying to get out of town with a 10-point loss?
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
It really is worth looking into.
If I get a chance, I’ll peek at it. My exam was yesterday, and things may be opening up in the schedule for the next few days, so we’ll see.
by David Hooper on Sep 24, 2009 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
I would love to see this broken down also. All we have to go by right now is a bunch of Florida fans saying Kiffin was trying to run out the clock despite being down by 10 and a bunch of Tennessee fans saying he wasn’t.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Yeah, it's bothersome.
I’m not ruling out the possibility of clock-killing. I’m certain Kiffin was playing for the onside kick at that point.
I really wish I knew if he had intended to go for the field goal first, or if he would have risked the time for the touchdown on that drive and hoped for quick field goal position on a drive after an onside kick. Just out of tangential curiousity.
by David Hooper on Sep 24, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Clock-killing
The timeout he called to stop the clock when Florida faced third and long with a little over a minute left would seem to spoil the clock-killing theory though, wouldn’t it?
Kiffin may not have managed the clock as well as he could have on Tennessee’s final drive, although as you point out we would need to know what his plan was before the interception occurred.
But we do know (from the ESPN play-by-play) that on its previous drive Tennessee had taken the ball 63 yards in three and a half minutes using this allegedly “not trying to win” offense. And the Vols took over at Florida’s 22 yard-line with about six minutes left. They were able to move it to about midfield, but the drive was taking too long and they ran into 4th and 6. On that play, which was a desperation play at that point, Crompton was picked off.
Florida took over at their own 26 with just under two minutes remaining. Meyer called three straight Tebow runs, the first two of which resulted in a third and 7 with over a minute remaining. Kiffin called his final timeout to stop the clock with 1:04 remaining. The Vols were unable to stop Tebow on that play, so the point became moot.
But if Kiffin were trying to sneak out of town with a 10-point loss, why does he call that timeout there?
Again, you can criticize his clock management on the Vols’ final drive, but to accuse him of trying to run out the clock and sneak off with a loss ignores the timeout he called with a minute left. Doesn’t it?
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Again, you can criticize his clock management on the Vols’ final drive, but to accuse him of trying to run out the clock and sneak off with a loss ignores the timeout he called with a minute left. Doesn’t it?
There is a fine distinction between poor clock management and trying to run out the clock. That’s worth trying to figure out.
by David Hooper on Sep 24, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree completely.
And watching the play (and game) clock run down between plays would be damning, but I don’t remember it happening that way. The timeout to stop the clock with a minute left and the Gators on third and long would seem to refute the “trying to run out the clock” theory though.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Like I said
I’ll admit I don’t know whether Kiffin was intentionally running out the clock (you’re right that taking a timeout at that stage isn’t a give-up-and-go-home move) or just butchering his game management, but you guys don’t really win that situation either way, do you? “Lane Kiffin has no concept of clock time and/or is incapable of creating a two-minute offense” isn’t a whole lot better than “Lane Kiffin gave up,” if you ask me.
hooper, I’ll also admit that with your, ahem, unique QB situation Kiffin’s best option might have been two slow drives connected by an onsides kick .. but man, I don’t know if I ever recall a team willingly accepting a do-or-die onsides over letting their defense try to get a stop.
I don't think it's quite as black and white as you make it...
It’s not “Either Kiffin is terrible at clock management in general or else he was deliberately losing the game.”
That one drive (again, going purely from memory and the ESPN play-by-play, not actually verifying the play clock situation on that last drive,) may have been a poorly managed drive, but if you expect Vol fans to be unhappy with Kiffin over one poorly-managed drive in a game in which they had a chance to knock off the consensus number one team in the nation, on the road, with a team coming off a 5-7 season and without a quarterback that could even be called “serviceable,” well I don’t know what to tell you.
But I do know that Kiffin wasn’t trying to lose that game, and I do know that we were pretty happy with the overall result.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
I don't expect Vol fans to be unhappy with Kiffin
but I do expect them to be able to realize that the rest of the world isn’t crazy when they look at that last drive and decide that Kiffin didn’t do everything he could to win the game.
The last drive
Ended with two throws downfield. One should have been intentional grounding, and the other was an interception.
That proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Kiffin’s plan and logic were sound. He tried everything he could to win the game until he had no choice but to lose it by throwing downfield..
This is why Tennessee fans felt like we had a chance until we had to throw it.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
I-F W-E S-P-E-A-K- S-L-O-W-L-Y, maybe they'll get it...
by memphispete on Sep 24, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
They'll never get it MP
So, I guess we’ve finally come up against somebody we can’t shut up with sound logic. I guess we’ll have to resort to a myspace fight.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
Easy, now.
Jerry’s good, smart people. Caps-locking him will dilute the effect when the real trolls swing by.
by David Hooper on Sep 24, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not gonna go caps lock on him
But, I may have to disagree wtih the “smart” part of that based on his flawed arguments and lack of concession to valid points.
And because I don’t want you to hit me with the “caps lock” picture either….
;-)
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
Left off the ;)
hard to do an “if we speak slowly” speech impediment, moron imitation in print without videoclips….
Jerry may generally be good and smart, but he’s not understanding the argument or counterpoints and responding in a sensible fashion – thus, VB & MP frustration…
by memphispete on Sep 24, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
The rest of the world is absolutely crazy
If they thought Tennessee had any chance with any other gameplan than what they ran.
Especially after screaming all week that Tennessee’s offense and QB is terrible, Kiffin never should have opened his mouth, and Tennessee is gonna lose worse than Cumberland did to GT. That’s not a joke either, people really were saying that.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
And unfortunately,
if you can’t prove that Kiffin was simply playing to keep it close, then you also can’t prove that he was playing to win.
by David Hooper on Sep 24, 2009 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Right
But the burden of proof is on the party making the accusation.
;-)
Rocky Top Talk
by Joel Hollingsworth on Sep 24, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
An early observation:
In that drive starting with ~6 minutes left, UT’s 9 plays consisted of 3 runs, 6 passes, and 1 timeout. It’ll take some review of the game to see how lackadaisical UT was during that drive, as 4 minutes is indeed a long time for 9 plays, but at the very least, they didn’t go into a running game shell. Two of the passes were to a fullback and a tight end, and may have been checkdowns. One was Hancock’s fumble; it went out of bounds, but the clock would have continued to run at that point. If that was when Hancock’s jaw was broken, it’s possible that it took a bit longer to sort out the next play (an incomplete pass).
by David Hooper on Sep 24, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions
What are the clock rules, by the way?
Doesn’t time travel faster now than it used to?
Rocky Top Talk
by Joel Hollingsworth on Sep 24, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Rules
Joel, I spent a little bit of time poking around before leaving the above comment and I believe that on an out-of-bounds play the clock restarts on the official’s “ready for play” signal until you pass the two-minute mark. So the clock would have stopped and then restarted before the snap, which is why I said that even though the Vols were running off 23 seconds of game clock between plays, they were probably taking almost 30 seconds of real time to get a play off.
As for never thinking the Vols ought to hurry up … well, I’ll just say (as someone who watched the game pretty much as a neutral) that I had the exact, total opposite reaction. Which, again, is why I think you can’t blame other parties for going the “Kiffin didn’t try to win” route. From my perspective, it looked for all the world like Kiffin had given up and was ready to accept his close defeat rather than give Urban the chance to score again.
hooper, I don’t recall if the underneath passes were checkdowns or designed that way, but that run with Brown up the middle wasn’t even a draw IIRC, and (again) it came with less than four minutes left and UT barely past their own 40-yard line (I think). The drive just wasn’t called with the urgency the clock required.
Yeah, I don't remember either.
That’s why I need to look.
by David Hooper on Sep 24, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
As a neutral observer
I’m going to make the assumption that you have casual knowledge of all things Volunteers.
So, this point bears repeating one more time:
Kiffin had no choice.
If you want to call it clock-killing then do so, but the argument that Tennessee had a chance by putting it on Crompton’s inept and demoralized shoulders is a complete fallacy and also completely negates any credibility of a person arguing otherwise.
Therefore, if it was clock-killing, it was only because they only chance Tennessee had to win that game was with runs and screen passes and that’s it. Nothing else. You know it, Florida fans know it but won’t admit it, UCLA’s DB that had 3 picks the previous game knows it, everyone we played last year with Crompton under center knows it, it just seems that Florida fans conveniently forget it when they all of a sudden don’t win by 50 and Urbie has to come up with an excuse as to why not.
Is that a run-on?
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
Um, I disagree
OK, let’s say the Crompton no-huddle has a 0.1% chance of winning. The strategy adopted by Kiffin on that final drive—which, again, took 4 minutes to travel 27 yards when the Vols needed two scoring drives in 6 minutes—had a 0.0% chance of winning.
I agree Kiffin had no choice. He had to let Crompton put the ball in the air downfield. Yes, a pick ends the game, but the game ended anyway sometime around the three-minute mark when the Vols hadn’t even crossed midfield.
Ok
Flawed logic, and using mathematics to predict the outcome of a game center on an oblong ball is disingenious, but I’ll buy into the statistical argument.
If you are Lane Kiffin, why take the chance of the pick when you have a much better chance of breaking to 15-20 yard runs back to back or reasonably close together. Had they broken one or two of those runs, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
If you want to use statstics to prove or disprove your argument, then you need to start there.
Was there a higher probability of throwing a pick by going downfield, or breaking a decently long run?
I believe you will find the latter the overwhelming winner in that….
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
Hindsight/foresight. The fact that the strategy took 4 minutes to travel 27 yards lost the game for us. But that doesn’t mean that the plan wasn’t to score a TD on a single running play in 8 seconds.
Again, Tennessee lost the game, perhaps because we ran out of time b/c the clock wasn’t managed well (which is, BTW, completely different than accusing the coach of playing not to win), but mostly because we were outmatched.
But knowing the man’s intentions — how do any of us know that?
Rocky Top Talk
by Joel Hollingsworth on Sep 24, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
It has taken a lot of back-and-forth to get there, but this post captures my thoughts on this matter exactly.
And one more thing: poor clock management on one drive does not equal terrible football coach. I would imagine Urban Meyer has screwed up a drive or two.
If this turns into a recurring problem with the Kiffin regime then it is worth revisiting, but I am not ready to write off the entire staff for one mismanaged drive (if it even WAS a mismanaged drive…)
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
I think the mismanaged drive stuff is a bunch of hooey
The fact remains that the offense is completely subpar. I was surprised when we executed well enough to drive the ball down Florida’s throat and score to make it 23-13. That Hardesty/Brown combo on runs and screens was beautiful. Surprisingly, we are then in a position (after a defensive stop) to score with 6 min left in the game.
Unsurprisingly, the offense fails to do what it had just done successfully in the previous drive…
All this argument about Kiffin’s motives or poor clock management is red herring stuff… The offense just doesn’t execute. Kiffin did what he had to do so that we had the best chance to win.
by memphispete on Sep 24, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
this case of clock mismanagement and playing not to win are different at all. If Kiffin is OK (and he certainly appeared to be) with a pace and lack or urgency that leaves his team no time and no chance at a second drive even if they score on the first, how is that playing to win? If his team approaches their final drive with the attitude that they’re not going to win no matter what they do, so they might as well just keep doing what they’ve been doing all game—which is what it looked like from here and what calls like the Brown run up the middle re-emphasized—how can you say Kiffin gave it everything he had? As Year2 said at the start of this thread, it’s one thing to play it safe for the first three quarters, but there comes a point—and that last drive was it—where you’re just conceding the game.
And if Kiffin’s plan was to just keep everything buttoned-down just as he had all game and pray something popped big … well, that’s a bad plan. Of course the odds are infinitesimal that Crompton’s going to do something spectacular, but they’re almost as slim that the Gators are going to let a pass to the fullback or a straight handoff go for 50 yards—and when the latter plan fails, it burns more and more precious time off the clock.
How many different ways does it have to be explained to you?
Crompton COULD NOT WIN THAT GAME.
Bottom line, end of story. It has nothing to do with Kiffin at all. Crompton and the WR’s could not do it. Period. Let it go man. They didn’t win by 50, but they still won. Can we move on now?
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
How many different ways does it have to be explained to you?
Tennessee COULD NOT WIN THAT GAME running 23 seconds off the clock between every play.
Bottom line, end of story. It has nothing to do with Crompton at all. Kiffin never let him try it. Period. Let it go man. They didn’t lose by 50, but they still lost. Can we move on now?
I want proof of that.
If what you say is true, aside from your calculations (which don’t add up).
I would like some hard evidence that Tennessee wither sat in the huddle, or stayed on the LOS running 23 seconds between plays. If you can find that, I’ll do an entire fanpost bemoaning Kiffin “throwing” the Florida game because you people really seem to believe he did it.
You really think he threw that game. Hilarious
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
It has everything to do with Crompton
And Kiffin did let him try. Read the post closer before you repeat it.
As soon as Kiffin gave him a shot it was game over.
You want me to repeat that a few more times for you?
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!

"The man who complains about the way the ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it."
by Getoffmyvols on Sep 24, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you so much.
Good enough for me. I’m done with him.
and rec’d.
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
Well, I guess I did go caps lock there.
Go ahead and hit me with it Hoop. I’m down. ;-)
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
And you haven't answered my question math major
Was there a higher probability of throwing a pick by going downfield, or breaking a decently long run?
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
Really not sure how you could see it that way
if you are at all familiar with the passing woes of UT’s offense and if you just watched UT run the ball straight down the Gators throat in the 4th qtr to get back to 10 pt deficit….
The swing pass/screen to Bryce was the equivalent of a pitch sweep, effectively. It’s the downfield passes that make me cringe. As Danielson (TV Color Analyst) said, the call on 4th down was absolutely perfect from a pure football standpoint on Crompton’s interception. The WR was supposed to run a hitch & go, but made a poor cut fake and didn’t fool the deep man. The pass was also thrown a touch too far inside. But the Florida DB’s hadn’t “backed up a step in a quarter and a half” and were breaking on all the short routes.
The pass call was great, the execution was poor – that’s why we run the ball, especially when it works.
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT
You can watch the full games on the SEC Digital Network website (woo!), but …
BUT
Their controls suck. You have to wait for the stream to load before you can forward to any given point. There are also no fast-forward / reverse controls. You have pause/play and the slider. And their old-school lack of adaptive streaming will make you remember all the reasons you hate dial-up.
Short story: if you want to look at that fourth quarter, be prepared to wait an hour while the thing buffers. The only upside is that they seem to have cut out commercials, quarter breaks, and haltime, which reduced the total clip to 109 minutes.
Just FYI
After my comment last night, I searched my DirecTV lineup to see if there was a random replay on, and there’s one on SportSouth sometime today IIRC.
Cool.
Those with cable can look. (Those with college budgets can dream…)
by David Hooper on Sep 24, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Then you so much as breathe on the thing,
and it resets the game and erases the buffer.
This thing is seriously backwoods.
by David Hooper on Sep 24, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, it's the South right?
;-)
Tennessee WILL beat Georgia on the way to 9+ wins in '09!!!
Eric Berry For Heisman!!!
I'm just waiting for the next RTT post to come up.
So we can officially move on. We’re almost there guys!
"The man who complains about the way the ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it."
I have the game on DVR and I just watched that last drive again...
Unfortunately CBS didn’t show the play clock during the entire drive, but I kept an eye on the game clock. I just don’t see how people could think Kiffin wasn’t playing to win. The only times it even remotely appeared the Vols weren’t playing with urgency were on the 3rd and 6 after the pass to Cottam (Cottam went out of bounds with 4:17 on the clock and the clock was running. The Vols huddled and got to the line with 3:51 remaining and Crompton snapped it with 3:44 remaining) and the 3rd and 6 after Hancock’s fumble out of bounds (at 2:29 with the clock running after the ball was set, and Crompton snapped it at 2:08 and threw the worst pass I have ever seen in my life.)
All the rest of the plays on the drive, the Vols seemed to be trying to move quickly. It’s just difficult when passing past the line of scrimmage isn’t a viable option.
And of course, on the Gators’ last drive Kiffin called a timeout to stop the clock on third and long but unfortunately Tebow got the first down.
At no point did it appear the Vols were trying to run out the clock.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.

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