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BlogPoll Week 11 Draft: Nothing Surprising Here

The computer rankings for the top 30, with no overrides.  I'm listing 30 so it's a little easier to see who we might want to override into the top 25.  Here's the data in Excel '07 form.

  1. TCU Horned Frogs
  2. Boise St. Broncos
  3. Oregon Ducks
  4. Ohio St. Buckeyes
  5. Auburn Tigers
  6. Stanford Cardinal
  7. Alabama Crimson Tide
  8. Nebraska Cornhuskers
  9. Wisconsin Badgers
  10. Nevada Wolf Pack
  11. LSU Tigers
  12. Iowa Hawkeyes
  13. Oklahoma St. Cowboys
  14. Michigan St. Spartans
  15. Arizona Wildcats
  16. Arkansas Razorbacks
  17. Oklahoma Sooners
  18. Virginia Tech Hokies
  19. Utah Utes
  20. West Virginia Mountaineers
  21. South Carolina Gamecocks
  22. Texas A&M Aggies
  23. Florida St. Seminoles
  24. Northern Illinois Huskies
  25. Miami Hurricanes
Top_30_scores_week_11_medium

Star-divide

The Top

TCU did actually drop a touch, but are still #1 in the computer.  Ohio St. will naturally get bumped behind Auburn, but I'd really need a strong argument to put Auburn any higher than #4.  The top three could go in most any order.

The Big Ten beatpath suggests an order of Michigan St., Wisconsin, Ohio State, and I tend to agree.  We'll have to do some sorting to get the other teams like Stanford mixed in properly, but that sounds about right.

The Middle

There are a few W/L areas that suggest bumps, like Iowa and Arizona.  Teams like these are high on SoS and defense, which is numerically overcoming their W/L deficit.  It's clouded slightly by having some teams with only 10 games and other with 11, but that's not nearly the problem it was early in the season.

The Bottom

Things get a little murkier in the final few slots.  There are some teams with questionable inclusion in the top 25 like West Virginia and Florida State.  Others have an argument for inclusion like Missouri.  Also, take a look at Temple (?!?) at 29.  They are 8-2 and leading the MAC East on an absolutely horrid SoS.  There's also SDSU, the object of my weekly rant about officials costing games, who would be as high as 21 if their previous two losses had been called correctly and SDSU had ended up winning.  They've been questionable for inclusion and very nearly beat TCU, but they feel a little distant, number-wise, to be bumped that high.  Still, give me the logic if you think they should move up.

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I find myself at odds with our computer more and more each week

and I’m concerned – which, I’m really not, but I can’t think of a better word right now – about a national perception that would allow people to look at a 10-0 Pac-10 team and an 11-0 SEC team and seriously suggest that TCU and/or Boise somehow are more deserving of the top two spots in the poll. If either Oregon or Auburn lose, I absolutely think an undefeated TCU or an undefeated Boise should go. But until they do, in my mind they’re always going to be #3 and #4, and I just don’t buy the argument otherwise. It’s totally unfair that they haven’t had the opportunity to prove themselves the way Oregon and Auburn have…but that’s life right now, and people shouldn’t punish Auburn and Oregon just because it’s cool to do it this year, or because they’re bored with the way things should rightfully happen (see: Charles Woodson over Peyton Manning).

(off soapbox)

by Will Shelton on Nov 14, 2010 12:37 PM EST reply actions  

Oregon I'll give you

But Auburn has lived a charmed existence this year and still doesn’t have a win that told people that they were for real. For that matter, they still don’t have a road win that’s worth a damn. Okay, so winning in Starkville is a decent accomplishment, but I watched that game, and it was ugly. @Kentucky? @Ole Miss? Color me unimpressed. Alabama has been dropping off a bit, but if Auburn wins convincingly in Tuscaloosa, they have a strong argument for #1. If they win at all, they have an argument. But until then, I still don’t see why we should like them more than Oregon, TCU, and Boise State.

by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 14, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm fine with Oregon in the top 2.

But I can’t fathom an argument right now that says that Auburn is better that either TCU or Boise. Could they win straight-up? Sure. Also note that Cal could very well have beaten Oregon last night. Variance is ever-present. Auburn, however, is a one-trick pony on offense and has just enough defense to scrape by. Both Boise and TCU are clearly superior teams on defense, and their offenses are just as prolific.

I understand resume, and with a computer system you’d think I care more about that. But I strongly feel that a national championship should be about who’s the best, not who has the shiniest schedule. That’s the same reason that playoff systems (NFL, NBA, etc.) don’t ever care about strength of schedule except deep within the tiebreakers. If there are two teams tied for the last wild car spot in the NFC, for example, and they didn’t play head to head, we don’t start going through and figuring out who had the best pelts until after they’ve exhausted conference and common game metrics.

Now, our computers are biased towards defense, which is why Auburn gets hit. We know this and I’m really hoping to change it. (Heck, I would have tweaked it midseason.) But that’s an issue independent of Auburn, and it only affects Auburn because Auburn’s defense is simply average – you have to go to Nevada in the rankings to find a worse defense, actually, and the others are not even close.

The SEC and the PAC-10 get their reward weekly for their schedules: they’re on national TV raking in far more money and getting far more promotion than the mid-majors. Conference play shouldn’t be discounted, but it’s not the all-important monolith in the room we make it out to be either. It’s one factor among several.

Perhaps a better perspective is Auburn/Ohio State. OSU spots Auburn 25 points off W/L and SOS alone in our computer, yet ends up 6 points ahead. Auburn’s offensive metrics are consistently better thanks to Newton and Tresselball, but OSU’s defense is just that much better that the numbers tilt in their favor. (Again, the defensive bias thing which, if fixed, would at least put Auburn ahead of OSU.)

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

This might come off a bit strong.

I think we all agree that the fundamental issue is that we’re trying to apply a national championship to a situation where such a determination really isn’t possible because the 120 teams haven’t provided enough information to narrow the list down to 2.

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely, and along those lines

it’s impossible to judge TCU/Boise and Auburn/Oregon on the same criteria. Is Auburn’s charmed, undefeated (two words that always go together) season against superior competition worth more than TCU’s incredible value against inferior competition according to our numbers?

by Will Shelton on Nov 14, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

With enough rigor, we could come up with a system that is reasonably close to providing the right balance.

We’re not there yet. More specifically, we can’t say whether our balance is correct because we haven’t gone through the statistical process necessary to validate it. The elephant in the room is variance, and absolutely nobody has done anything to get a handle on that.

Even in a playoff system, we don’t have a really good handle on it. Suppose we had a +1 this year and suppose that one of the 4 undefeateds either lost a game or was declared ineligible. Who’s the fourth to play in the +1 system? We could come up with a much better answer if we could identify who’s more likely to actually play well.

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Comte


Tips his hat to you, sir

by _trey_ on Nov 14, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m with Will on this. Admittedly, I haven’t been paying all that much attention to anyone’s numbers other than Tennessee’s and those of its opponent that week. And I think that there’s a reason defensive metrics ought to matter more than offensive. But wins matter most of all, and if those wins come against tougher teams, well then that seals it for me. Of course the soft spot in that argument is the word “tougher.” I suspect the dirt is in strength of schedule, although I haven’t looked at it. What can y’all tell us about how we’re getting the data and weighting SOS?

by Joel Hollingsworth on Nov 14, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

To me, it also depends on how those wins come

A dominating win over a team ranked just outside the top 25 may impress me more than a narrow escape over a top 15 team in a game where you got some lucky calls or were +4 in turnovers or something. Also, winning a tough road game is impressive. So I’m all for Oregon, but Auburn still hasn’t shown it to me. Their resume. . .

*17-14 win in Starkville. This is their best road win. They tried to hand the game to MSU, but State wouldn’t take it.

*37-34 in Lexington. Need I say more?

*27-24 at home over a 5-5 Clemson team. Clemson missed a chip shot FG in OT.

*35-27 at home over #21 (BP Draft) South Carolina. +4 turnover margin in the 4th quarter screams “South Carolina gave the game away.”

*65-43 at home over #16 (BP Draft) Arkansas. This one looks impressive on its face, but I watched the game, and Auburn was given TWO touchdowns on horrendous replay decisions. Both times the ball should’ve gone to Arkansas instead. The second made it a two score game in the 4th quarter. That’s a pretty big swing in a game that Auburn trailed in the 4th quarter.

*49-31 at home over a 5-6 Georgia team.

*24-17 at home over #11 (BP draft) LSU. This is the only win that impresses me at all. But enough to place them over Oregon, Boise, or TCU? No.

by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 14, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

But how many "impressive wins"

Does TCU or Boise have against teams “just outside the top 25”? TCU has Utah, which is nice, but many considered Utah playing a charmed life, too. They needed some pretty lucky calls to beat a pretty bad Big East team, after all. Boise came back against Virginia Tech, but they also got lucky in that game.

______________________________________________
I will give my North Carolina for Tennessee Today. Apparently.

by bobothevol on Nov 14, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Part of this is because I rate Hawaii

I think they were playing really well when they came into Boise last weekend. So Boise has them, Oregon State, and Virginia Tech on a cross-country trip. TCU has Utah, Oregon State, Baylor, and Air Force. Nobody else has handled those last two teams anything near what TCU did.

by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 14, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I do think it's unfair

to say that Auburn hasn’t shown it to you with all of those “quality” wins, but give TCU/Boise a pass because they looked good in one or two games against similar competition. If I was an Auburn fan, the notion that their season somehow wasn’t good enough when they average almost 40 points a game in the SEC and are 11-0 would drive me insane.

by Will Shelton on Nov 14, 2010 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

As you said earlier, there is no fair method.

Auburn’s earning stripes in the SEC while giving up 30 points a game on defense. Oregon’s living off of second half miracles that mask a lot of slow first halves. TCU and Boise are blowing the doors off of everybody but can’t get on the docket for anybody that the rest of the country respects. (Nebraska note: Boise would have been foolish to take that bum deal.)

You would have to completely dismantle the conferences and set up a FCS-wide drawdown system of some sort in order to end up with a reasonably clear idea of ‘deserving’ teams at the end. And even then, you’d have to do it in such a way that doesn’t automatically kill a team’s chances in week 1 if they lose. Good luck with that.

I wholeheartedly agree: it’s not fair to Auburn at all. It’s not fair to any of these teams.

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Aside: I don't think Oregon is winning on second half "miracles".

They don’t use difficult things to defend, and you can coach a lot of it. But they have advantages – tempo, variance, and conditioning. Those things add up, but they don’t do it in the first 30 minutes. I’d almost argue the games where they come out blazing early are the outliers from how I’d expect them to play.

Simulated Gameday Experience - just like the real thing, only we have smoke machines.

by Chris Pendley on Nov 14, 2010 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't mean that in a disparaging way.

I meant that Oregon’s second halves are the stuff of legend. I didn’t mean they were lucky.

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure Auburn fans would

But I’ve only seen them play three times this year. They looked good against a 5-6 team, they looked terrible in Starkville, and they got outgained by 100 yards and probably would’ve lost if not for two free TDs from the striped shirts. The box scores against USC and Clemson were pretty ugly as well, even though I missed those games. What I’ve seen from TCU and Boise makes me think they would’ve done better in those games. Having a defense helps.

Still, Auburn’s only road test of the entire year is up in two weeks. We’ll see what they do.

by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 14, 2010 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

And this isn't, by the way,

To say I think Auburn has a bad team. I did for a while, but they’re winning me over. But if you have to pick two, I’m not picking them right now. And the system says you have to pick two.

by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 14, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I know why the defensive metrics ought to count more.

The problem we have is twofold. First, we count it too much more by a 27:14 (~2:1) ratio. The correlations that Matt ran just don’t justify that much of a preference for defense.

Second, we don’t account for autocorrelation, meaning our metrics are prone to instability.

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Thoughts

*Agreed on the top four.

*Something on the beatpaths that has always been strange to me. Michigan State is helped by their loss getting less impressive. Now that Iowa is out of the picture, their crushing loss doesn’t make a circular beatpath with 1-loss teams anymore, and they can move up because they lost to a 4-2 (Big 10) team and the others lost to a 5-1 team. Of the three 9-1 teams, Sparty has by far the ugliest loss, and they don’t have the shiniest win to make up for it. Wisky beat Iowa and handled Ohio State and has the best top end resume of the bunch. Now Ohio State I’ll grant hasn’t done anything terribly impressive. But I still think Wisconsin is tops in the conference.

*And they’re all below Stanford. I know they had a narrow escape this week, but look at this sandwich: they had a road game right in between the battle of two top ten teams (vs. Arizona) and their biggest rivalry game (@Cal). I’m still high on the Cardinal.

*LSU over Bama

*Nevada is impressing the computer more and more, but they aren’t impressing me. The home win over Cal is looking less and less shiny as Cal keeps playing road games (48-14 loss @USCw, 35-7 loss @OSU, 20-13 win @WSU), and a one point escape in Fresno pales in comparison to what Hawaii did there. They deserve to be ranked, but what’s keeping them so high?

*San Diego State vs. Utah. Each have their best win over Air Force by a similar margin. Each have lost to TCU, but Utah did it at home by 40, while SDSU did it away by 5. Each have lost embarassingly on the road against a well-known religious college who stinks this year (Utah by 25, SDSU by 3). But Utah beat Pitt at home in OT whereas SDSU lost @Missouri by 3. Utah has a bigger margin of victory against the terrible teams, but their holistic resume honestly doesn’t look that much different.

*Okay, FSU, you can be ranked. But West Virginia and Miami? Yuck. I guess Miami’s resume is fairly similar to North Carolina State (one lost to FSU and UVA, the other to ECU and Clemson), although I think NCSU’s win over FSU is better than Miami’s over UNC. Then again, UNC beat FSU. Then again, the ACC is slam full of circular beatpaths (UNC, FSU, Miami and NCSU, FSU, Clemson are the two big ones). NCSU and Miami have the best records of that bunch, but neither are exactly screaming to be ranked. Ugh. Oh, and West Virginia still lost to Syracuse and UConn.

*But there are a couple teams who might should join the rankings. Bump Missouri over Texas A&M, and Mississippi State still has an argument. Does MSU have more of an argument than WVU, Miami, and NCSU? Maybe so. Temple, by the way, has no argument. They’ve played one ranked team all year (NIU), and then lost by two touchdowns. They also lost by double digits against an unranked Penn State, and their best win is over UConn. Yes, that UConn. I’ve already made the case that SDSU could be potentially as high as Utah, but they do play each other this week. I’m happy with letting the winner take the ranking.

by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 14, 2010 2:47 PM EST reply actions  

That's partly why I don't like beatpaths.

Example: take two teams ranked, oh, 5 and 6. Both have one loss. Team A lost to Team B while Team B lost to the undefeated #1 team. All else is effectively equal. Beatpaths suggests that you rank Team A at #5 and B at #6, yet Team B actually has the more respectable loss.

This logic carries forward. Instead of 5 and 6, what if it were 20 and 21? Beatpaths give you the same result, yet Team B’s lone loss is far less damaging on its face.

I always get bogged down in the logic on this. I yield to Will on beatpaths in the poll, but there’s a sense in which it doesn’t really capture quality well. (It does capture head-to-head.)

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I like head to head when two teams are relatively even (e.g. LSU and Alabama)

But when you start getting circular beatpaths, my inclination is to just look at who has the most impressive resume. Also, I think you had things mixed up on your example. B would be ahead of A by all logical metrics.

by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 14, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. Reverse that.

I meant: suppose that Team A beat Team B …

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, no.

I had it right the first time. Team A’s only loss was to Team B. Team B’s only loss was to the undefeated #1.

Ignoring the head-to-head component, Team A would normally be ranked below Team B. Including head-to-head beatpath, B is below A.

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No

Ignoring the head-to-head component, Team A would be ranked below Team B. Since B beat A, Team A is still ranked below on head-to-head.

In order to make your case work, Team A has to have the pelt of a previous #1 or Team B has to have their loss to a crap team. Then the head-to-head may go against the holistic picture.

by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 14, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, right.

yes. Remove the ‘lost to undefeated #1’ and replace with ‘lost to a team several steps lower’.

by David Hooper on Nov 14, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

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