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Should post season play define the 2009-2010 Tennessee Volunteers?

ccording to KenPom, Tennessee has a 39% chance of beating Mississippi State tomorrow night in Starkville. I don't know whether Pomeroy is aware of Bruce Pearl's recent ratcheting up of expectations, but assuming that Tennessee does lose, its regular season record will be 22-8.

As Will and I talked about toward the end of last night's podcast, fans may or may not consider 2009-2010 a successful season when the gym doors are closed in April. Considering all that Bruce Pearl has done for Tennessee basketball and considering what could have happened to this team after the January 1 arrests, the dismissal of our best player, and the lengthy suspensions of three other key contributors, you almost have to stand and applaud for a season in which the Vols beat #1 Kansas and #2 Kentucky and almost beat another top-ranked team in Purdue, regardless of what happens in the postseason.

But have the expectations for the Tennessee Volunteers changed? Will fans be less than satisfied with the season unless the team breaks new ground and gets into the Elite Eight?

Star-divide

Is that even a reasonable expectation for this season? Since 2002, only 14 of the 64 Elite Eight teams had 22 or fewer regular season wins, and only eight teams had eight or more regular season losses:

2006
LSU 22-7
George Mason 22-6
2005
West Virginia 18-9
Wisconsin 20-7
Michigan State 22-5
2004
Kansas 20-7
Georgia Tech 22-8
Xavier 19-10
Alabama 16-11
2003
Texas 22-5
Michigan State 18-11
Oklahoma 21-6
2002
Indiana 18-9
Missouri 19-11
Oregon 23-8

 

At 22-8, it's certainly possible that Tennessee could make the Elite Eight. Shoot, the Vols could get hot and win the whole thing -- Maryland and Syracuse won in 2002 and 2003 respectively with only 23 regular season wins. But according to history, Tennessee making the Elite Eight or better this season would be out of the ordinary.

Of course, we've come to expect the extraordinary with Bruce Pearl, and I'm sure that's exactly the way he wants it. But if we fall short of a high water mark this season, will we view it as a failure or will we instead focus on just how much this team accomplished in the face of great adversity and the style and class with which they did it?

Basketball is a tournament sport, but that hardly means that the regular season is meaningless. The regular season ends tomorrow, and post-season play begins next week. We'll just have to wait and see whether the latter somehow diminishes the former. Make no mistake, we all want the team to win it all and to play as if its legacy depends on it, but regardless of what happens, this fan plans to just enjoy the post season ride, wherever it takes us.

Just for reference, here's a list of the last eight Elite Eight fields and their regular season records.

2009
Louisville 25-5
Michigan State 25-5
Connecticut 27-3
Missouri 25-6
Pittsburgh 28-3
Villanova 25-6
North Carolina 27-3
Oklahoma 27-4
2008
North Carolina

29-2

Louisville 24-7
Kansas 28-3
Davidson 23-6
Memphis 30-1
Texas 26-5
UCLA 28-3
Xavier 26-5
2007
Florida 26-5
Oregon 23-7
Kansas 27-4
UCLA 26-4
North Carolina 25-6
Georgetown 23-6
Ohio State 27-3
Memphis 27-3
2006
LSU 22-7
Texas 25-5
Memphis 27-3
UCLA 24-6
Connecticut 27-2
George Mason 22-6
Villanova 24-3
Florida 24-6
2005
Illinois 29-1
Arizona 25-5
Louisville 26-4
West Virginia 18-9
North Carolina 26-3
Wisconsin 20-7
Michigan State 22-5
Kentucky 23-4
2004
Kansas 20-7
Georgia Tech 22-8
St. Joseph's 27-0
Oklahoma State 24-3
Duke 25-4
Xavier 19-10
Alabama 16-11
Connecticut 24-6
2003
Kentucky 26-3
Marquette 23-4
Arizona 25-2
Kansas 24-6
Texas 22-5
Michigan State 18-11
Oklahoma 21-6
Syracuse 23-4
2002
Indiana 18-9
Kent State 26-4
Missouri 19-11
Oklahoma 27-3
Maryland 23-4
Connecticut 24-5
Kansas 27-3
Oregon 23-8

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Elite 8 - Discussing this question is DELUSIONAL

Yes, we have been able to pull off the big win – beating two #1 seeds on our home floor. And, yes, this may be Pearl’s best coaching job since his first year here.

But, we aren’t really that good this year. At least, not Elite Eight good.

We will finish THIRD in our own half of the conference. We have huge weaknesses in the post, from the line and lack the ability to create our own shot with an NBA-calibre player in crunch time. Gary Parrish did a great piece noting that the team with the most NBA players has the best chance to advance in the NCAA tournament. At present, we have zero players who are NBA-calibre (Wayne Chism appears in just one mock draft late in the second round – not ESPN). We are average defensively (unable to press, post defense), inconsistent with energy/effort and not that great on the boards.

But, we found a way to win 22 games. Thank you, Coach Pearl.

I love Bruce Pearl. He has consistently imposed discipline in his five years, and it has cost him personally. It was worth the price. This Tennessee team has overachieved again and we can still be proud of a coach that has integrity.

One win in the NCAA would be great – if we are a 4 seed, we should make that happen. If we are a 5,6 or 7 seed, then it gets tougher. Two wins would be phenomenal. Anything else is delusional.

Feel free to mark this one for ridicule if we advance past the Sweet 16. I won’t mind.

by memphispete on Mar 5, 2010 8:18 AM EST reply actions  

I really, really hope you are right

But, I don’t think this team is better than the Lofton, Smith, Bradshaw teams that were higher rated and didn’t advance past the Sweet 16.

Again, I hope you are right.

(Not intending to anger fellow Vols fans, but I just don’t think we have any right to talk about Elite 8)

by memphispete on Mar 5, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions  

no i understand where you are coming from

but saying DELUSIONAL might be overstating it a bit

by golfballs03 on Mar 5, 2010 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I think fans who would be disappointed by missing the Elite 8 are indeed delusional

While it’s not the point of the piece, I am responding to these two quotes in Joel’s piece:

Will fans be less than satisfied with the season unless the team breaks new ground and gets into the Elite Eight?

and, later, Joel poses a similar question:

But if we fall short of a high water mark this season, will we view it as a failure

I think anyone who sees this season as a “failure” or is “less than satisfied” by not reaching the Elite 8 is indeed delusional.

Bruce has done one heckuva job in beating Kentucky and Kansas while posting 22 wins and counting. But, this team does not have Elite 8 talent.

by memphispete on Mar 5, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

you said discussing the question is delusional

And I think determining whether a team has “Elite 8 talent” is an exercise in futility.

I don’t think we should be speculating how we should feel under what are still hypothetical situations. Say Tennessee makes it to the Sweet 16 and blows a massive lead at the end of the game because they lost focus. Would you not be disappointed? The point is we can make all these hypotheticals and set expectations… or we can just let them play and assess their performance after the fact.

by golfballs03 on Mar 5, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

this question refers to someone viewing the season as a failure if we miss the Elite 8

and discussing the Elite 8 as an expectation with a team that is third in the SEC East and #30 on the kenpom scale means that person lacks perspective. Delusional.

by memphispete on Mar 5, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Amen, on Wisconsin at #4. Anyone else think the Big 10 is overrated generally?

btw, I think your comments are great, golfballs3, so I’m really trying to correct any miscommunication on my part.

No invective intended in the tone of the responses, despite the dreaded CAPS LOCK and the bold…

by memphispete on Mar 5, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Improbable? Definitely, but not delusional

First of all, I don’t think the point of this post was to say “We need to or should get to the Elite 8 or this season will be a failure.” Getting three wins in the NCAA tournament is tough even for the best teams (I’d like to refer you to our 2008 squad). That said, it’s not impossible given a favorable seeding/region.

To address the greater question: I believe this team will be remembered more for its feats in the face of adversity during the regular season long into the future, unless we actually do make a deep run in The Big Dance. What we accomplished during the season was extraordinary, and I think we’ll remember that Kansas win for a long, long time to come.

There might be a few mouth-breather Vol fans that would see an early exit (first or second round) as unacceptable and there might be some rumblings about Pearl’s ability to get us over the hump, but those complaints would be completely unfair given how far we’ve come under Pearl. Want evidence? During my freshman year we stormed the court after beating a relatively mediocre ninth-ranked Kentucky squad; this year we beat the top two teams in the country and the students stayed in their seats. Curtains used to cover all the unused seats at TBA, those curtains are no more. I could go on. Pearl will eventually take us to the Promised Land, we just need to have some patience. And unlike another Jew I could name, he probably won’t force us to wander the desert for 40 years.

So Sayth King Zach I

by kingofzachland on Mar 5, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Pearl will eventually take us to the Promised Land, we just need to have some patience.

Imagine if we had given up on Pat after 5 years of “not getting over the hump.” To me, Bruce Pearl is truly amazing. He’s shown the ability to show class in winning and losing, has done a remarkable job with keeping and enforcing discipline on his players — the Baylor freshman who punched another girl in the face? Out two games. Imagine what Bruce would have done if that had been, say, JP? — and either he or the staff he has put together is absolutely top-notch at gameplanning. Given the incoming recruiting class, too, he’s finally getting some super-tools to use.

Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!

by bobo_the_vol on Mar 5, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

As noted above,

I think Joel’s piece responds to those who believe it will be a failure to miss out on the Elite 8.

I am responding to anyone who thinks the answers “Yes” to the question: “Will fans be less than satisfied with the season unless the team breaks new ground and gets into the Elite 8?”

by memphispete on Mar 5, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I will be less than satisfied if I don't think they played their best

but who cares? why are we even sitting here trying to determine how we should feel with an outcome that has yet to be decided?

by golfballs03 on Mar 5, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

The thing is...

The bold opening part of your post says

Elite 8 – Discussing this question is DELUSIONAL

It doesn’t say that anyone who thinks we could make the Elite 8 is delusional (which in and of itself could be debatable), it says anyone who even raises the faintest of possibilities of whether it could happen or not is delusional. I find it a bit …I don’t know…harsh?…to say that.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Mar 5, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

My comments throughout are in the context of a response to the story by Joel

which indicates through questions posed (at least twice) that certain groups of fans will view the season as a failure or a disappointment if we don’t reach the Elite 8.

If you’d rather I re-title the first comment “Elite 8 or The Season’s a Bust!” – A Deluded View – that would be a good one. (Since we can’t edit our comments once we post, it’s a shame that I can’t give it a better title. I think if you read all of my comments with a charitable eye you will see that I am responding to the context of the story by saying we just aren’t good enough to EXPECT an Elite 8 appearance.)

The achievements have been phenomenal and improbable and highly unexpected in light of the challenging circumstances of the season. It may be Bruce Pearl’s best coaching job since his first year, so a Sweet 16 would not be a disappointment or a failure in my book.

by memphispete on Mar 5, 2010 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Good points

I would agree it is very improbable this Vols team can advance to the Elite 8.

This team has no consistent shooters. Here are the stats as of March 3 for 3-pointers (with at least 25 attempts):

Scotty Hopson- 36.1%
Wayne Chism- 31.8%
Bobby Maze- 27.5%
JP Prince- 30.8%
Cam Tatum- 40.4%
Melvin Goins- 31.4%
McBee- 32.5%
Swipa- 30.4%
Josh Bone (only 16 attempts)- 25%

On top of this, as a team UT is shooting 66.4% from the charity stripe.

Teams that have had success against UT this year have some similarities. Teams with good zone defense coupled with a disciplined halfcourt offense have been giving UT fits all year. I think UT is one of the most athletic teams in the nation. When they get focused, UT is capable of playing some of the nastiest defense I have ever seen on Rocky Top. If UT is to make a run to the Elite 8, it will be because the boys got hot from behind the arc and sold out on defense with the matchup zone.

UT has showed it can play with teams like Kansas (there was an article I read about the defense Pearl used in that game to frustrate Collins. Anyone know where to find it? Pearl and staff went to the Timberwolves, if I remember correctly, and studied the “Isolation” defense used by the TWolves to limit the effectiveness of opposing teams’ star guards) using great defense and timely shooting.

This team must get hot shooting, great defense and keep Chism out of foul trouble. Brian Williams has seemed to mature as a player these past few games. UT is going to need people crashing the boards as much as possible.

If all this happens and UT gets a good seeding (both number and region), they can do some damage. Regardless, I am proud of these players and the job Pearl has done this year. His passionate coaching and ability to manage the chemistry of the team during the tribulations this year are both great achievements.

GO BIG ORANGE!

TFV- V,B!

Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit

by pound the rock on Mar 5, 2010 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm somewhat with you:

This team doesn’t appear to have the high-level talent to beat a sweet-sixteen foe. But there is, to me, something special about this team. I won’t be betting against them ever, I can tell you that much.

Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!

by bobo_the_vol on Mar 5, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

You misunderstood Parrish

He said that having NBA-level talent (perhaps three players, I do not recall) is a prerequisite to making the final four. I have thought this for years.

He most certainly did not say that chances of success were directly correlated with NBA talent.

His point, that some NBA level talent is necessary for a final four run (but not sufficient) is one that I agree with and that is usually proven each year.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Mar 8, 2010 1:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, I don't think it will define this team

What will define this team is the arrests, and the way they bounced back against Kansas. But I am hoping that post-season play will define this team. Beating teams like Kansas and Kentucky during the regular season are exceptional, especially under the circumstances! This program is at a point, that we at least expect to be somewhat competitive with teams of that caliber, and it’s not unprecedented under Bruce’s tenure here. But we are also at the point now, that Tennessee should have reasonable expectations in the NCAA tournament. We didn’t overachieve to get into the field. People may have to readjust what their expectations are from the pre-season now that Tyler is gone. But we still expect Tennessee to play good basketball, beat the teams we should, and be competitive with everyone else. If that means losing to the 4 or 5 seed in the 2nd round, then this team will let the regular season define them – people will choose to remember beating Kansas and Kentucky (nothing wrong with that). But I think this team is on the verge of really melding – now that Pearl has found a reliable rotation – playing better as a team, with their best basketball ahead of them. They still have an opportunity to define themselves in the post-season.

by golfballs03 on Mar 5, 2010 9:05 AM EST reply actions  

Well put

I’ll definitely remember this team for its post season play if they either: Win the SEC Tourney and/or Make the Sweet 16 or better. Of course, winning the SEC Tourney is right up there with a UT player winning the Heisman in the “Things that will never happen in my lifetime” category.

So Sayth King Zach I

by kingofzachland on Mar 5, 2010 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I know it's wrong to root against your team,

but I would like to see them win one and get taken down in their 2nd game. They have to be gassed at this point. I can’t imagine them having enough in the tank for 4 straight days of action. As much as I’d love to see them win it, I’d rather have them rest and get a chance for a second weekend in the NCAA’s.

by ChattVol on Mar 5, 2010 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

and actually

one of Bruce’s problems the other night with the team is that nobody was gassed after the game.

by golfballs03 on Mar 5, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions  

That's a good point,

but I’m not so sure I like the team’s company in that ranking. However, I am feeling a little more at ease with your findings. Thanks.

by ChattVol on Mar 5, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

i know what you are saying

you scan through the teams ranked in the top of that category and there aren’t many great teams. kansas, kentucky and syracuse are rank in the bottom half…

by golfballs03 on Mar 5, 2010 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Tangible success

I made this point in the podcast, but because 63 of 64 teams lose in March, you like to have something to point to, to say “here’s what our team did this year.”

Pearl’s first four teams had that: three teams that won the SEC East, and the one that didn’t (06-07) made the Sweet 16 for the first time in seven years and the second time ever. I know last year some people were disappointed and thought winning the division was no longer enough, and to a degree you can’t always be satisfied with the same stuff and still be making progress.

But after we beat Kentucky, I think now you have something tangible to look back on this season – wins over Kansas and Kentucky, considering the adversity – and call it successful. If it was just the Kansas game, that could’ve been an isolated story. But the fact that this depleted team has won 20+/10+ SEC, and beat KU and UK, I think it’ll stand.

But…no matter where the Vols fall (as long as it’s betewen 3-6, which I think is our window at this point), they’ll play a team in the first round they should absolutely beat, and a team in the second round they can absolutely beat. And if this team finds a way to make the Sweet 16, having those KU/UK wins in the bank will let them play with a confidence that there’s no team they can’t beat…and we’re at our best as underdogs.

It’s not that we’re playing with house money…it’s that we’re a good story in search of a good ending. I don’t think a bad ending will ruin the whole story. But a good ending could make a good story great.

by Will Shelton on Mar 5, 2010 9:56 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Great Quote:
It’s not that we’re playing with house money…it’s that we’re a good story in search of a good ending. I don’t think a bad ending will ruin the whole story. But a good ending could make a good story great.

I have writer’s envy.

So Sayth King Zach I

by kingofzachland on Mar 5, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

That is fantastic. Here’s betting Will’s going to work that in to his radio appearance today.

;-)

by Joel Hollingsworth on Mar 5, 2010 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I was on yesterday

because the Lady Vols have the airwaves this afternoon…but any other week, you’re probably right.

by Will Shelton on Mar 5, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Well

You’ll just have to use it next week. It’s too good not to be used again.

by Joel Hollingsworth on Mar 5, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

It depends, as has been said

I think there’s only one way that the postseason can negatively define this team, and that’s if we get beaten in the first round of the NCAAs. Even then, with the great story that the regular season was, it’s hard to tell whether even that kind of disappointment would be a negative defining moment. If it were coupled with a loss to LSU on Thursday, the odds would be better for a negative definition.

If we make the second round, we’ll play someone equally as good as us, possibly marginally better or marginally worse. It will be disappointing if we lose, but people will forget it in light of what we’ve done this season. Think of it like Pearl’s first year. If we had lost to Winthrop, we may remember that year by the flameout. But as it is, even though we lost in the second round, there were just too many positives outweighing it. I won’t be satisfied with a second round loss insofar as postseason play goes, but a second round loss won’t mar my satisfaction with the season as a whole.

Personally, I think the Sweet Sixteen is the reasonable fan’s goal this year. It’s well within our grasp. We only need to win as a favorite and then get a 50/50 win. I will be perfectly satisfied with the Sweet Sixteen.

Elite Eight or better would take a great run (win as favorite, 50/50 win, win as underdogs), and should we get it, this will immediately jump to Pearl’s most memorable team by a fairly wide margin. I hope that’s what happens, but I don’t foresee it. If we get into the Duke (Ohio State?) bracket as a 4/5, I think we have a shot. If we’re in the Kansas bracket, it’s unlikely, and if we’re in the Syracuse bracket, we can kiss all hope goodbye.

This team has overcome enough adversity and done enough good that they don’t need to break new ground in the tournament. That said, Pearl has raised our expectations (and continues to raise them) enough that there will come a point at which not breaking new ground will be termed a disappointment. I hope we break through to the Elite Eight sooner rather than later, because if it takes too long, it will turn into a monkey on the backs of Pearl and the Vols. As for now though, it’s hard not to be happy with the job he and the team have done this season.

by Incipient_Senescence on Mar 5, 2010 11:09 AM EST reply actions  

I really hope that we get a 4 and the 5 seed in our bracket is Georgetown

I think they would have serious issues turning around and playing on 1 day rest

by golfballs03 on Mar 5, 2010 11:29 AM EST reply actions  

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