We're Not Trying to "Rationalize" What Happened
(So I posted this in a comment and figured I might as well throw it up in a Fan Post for anyone outside of that thread to see.)
To all the non-UT fans: I guess I should go ahead and jump out for all of us in saying that we are not trying to Justify / Approve of the actions done by more than five but less than ten Tennessee Football Players to the guy. We aren’t. We all know it’s bad, it’s wrong, and if there are more people suspended and/or dismissed from the Team over this then I really doubt you’ll find anybody on this blog saying the punishment was too harsh. These guys have dug themselves a hole that Dooley and the Justice System will try to sort out.
What we are doing is trying to ascertain the actual story that happened as well, because we, Iunno, kinda give a crap about it. It’s somewhat worse for Montario Hughes to turn around and beat the hell outta some guy who “bumped” into him than if Greg King threw a punch at a guy who knocked Hughes first. And we’d like to know who it was who did instigate the whole thing from our end. Was it Hughes? Was it Nelson? Was it King? These questions do matter and asking them does not mean that we’re trying to say “OMG Hughes Was Only Bad Guy Let King Go He’s Innocent!!11” What it means is that we’re trying to sort out the details of just what happened so that we can try to understand what the final punishments of this will be.
Look, from an outside perspective I’m about 95% sure that you look at “Tennessee Players Start Bar Fight” and sneer and sit on the edge of your seats to await the punishment because .. well .. you aren’t a fan. That’s the natural reaction. I know it’s what I feel like when I see some troubles caused in Florida, Georgia (most often Georgia!), Alabama, Southern Cal, etc. I really don’t care too much for the details facts and instead simply pay attention to the bigger facts and equate “that punishment should mean this.”
So understand us before you come around telling us that we’re trying to rationalize this whole incident or say “If they aren’t charged officially they did nothing wrong!!” None of us, that I have read, are trying to do that. Two players were suspended without a single known “official” scratch against them and nobody has said that their punishment was too high. If every single person involved in this got dismissed I’d probably be like “Wow, that was a bit harsh but we’ll be better in the long-term.”
Further, Cardsfan25 said this:
anyone doubt that 7 UT football players brutally attacked one short fat dude, and and off duty cop and put them both in the hospital.
Honestly? I don’t want any player who’d do anything criminal to be on my football team for the sole reason that it’s my dream to be able to play football for the University of Tennessee. The fact is that I’ve not been graced with that level of athleticism and/or drive to do that so I look at those who can live my dream with a level of contempt and demand. But let’s be honest: if Football was played only by those with spotless criminal records then .. well .. I’m not sure the complete consequences but I do know probably 25% of every team in the SEC would be gone.
Not to mention the whole point of this debate is to determine whether the Tennessee players attacked or defended way, way, way, way more than they should have. Does anyone doubt they assaulted Mr. Russell? I don’t think so. But right now we do have different stories on who started the fight and, as there isn’t really anything there to tell fact from fiction on that point at the moment, we can only speculate which, crazy enough, is what we are doing.
Finally, saying something like “Do you want people capable of this to play on your team??!!” is poor logic in the extreme. Everybody is capable of that, or of doing something bad and making poor decisions, sometime very poor. That’s why we have the Justice System and a Coach: so that we have people in place who we trust to determine when that poor judgment crosses lines that can’t be uncrossed and have the power to remove those individuals from their positions, or inflict other punishment upon them. And right now, in Dooley I Trust.
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Well played and rec'd.
I think most alabama fans respect dooley, and I think he’s handled things well at this point.
What we are doing is trying to ascertain the actual story that happened as well, because we, Iunno, kinda give a crap about it. It’s somewhat worse for Montario Hughes to turn around and beat the hell outta some guy who "bumped" into him than if Greg King threw a punch at a guy who knocked Hughes first. And we’d like to know who it was who did instigate the whole thing from our end.
Fair enough, but what if the details remain contested, and the identity of the player/players (assuming it was one) that assaulted the cop is never discovered by the police? It seems like a distinct possibility, and I have no idea how Dooley will handle that. I could see anything from a total house cleaning to a relative white washing.
So I don’t think we outsiders are concerned that you guys are trying to rationalize what happened, but we are suspicious that guilty parties will skate whether it’s due to lack of being identified or false claims of defense that can’t be disproven (if that is the case).
I think Dooley wants to do the right thing, but I’m just not sure he’ll be able to due to circumstances beyond his control.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
Really, Zoltar?
we are suspicious that guilty parties will skate
Would that be before or after the permanent dismissals from the team and the indefinite suspensions and other internal disciplinary actions against everyone involved with the punishments of more to come as Dooley learns more?
COEXISTence is difficult when core beliefs are mutually exclusive and those on the other side keep blowing up buildings, people, etc.
Muhammed sez: "Don't Lase Me Bro!"
That should read "with the promise of more punishments to come as Dooley learns more"
COEXISTence is difficult when core beliefs are mutually exclusive and those on the other side keep blowing up buildings, people, etc.
Muhammed sez: "Don't Lase Me Bro!"
At this point
I see where Zoltar is coming from. I too wonder what will happen if KPD can’t finger anyone specifically, due to lack of evidence/admission. Based on what has been publically released at this point, the KPD is getting very little out of the players, and who can blame them? Which one of those guys is willing to be a nark and fall on the ax, just to admit that he knows specifically which player(s) was/were responsible for the beatdowns? Regardless of what the police determine though, Coach Dooley still has the ultimate say in who will stay and who has to go, and I think we all trust that he will do whatever is right.
"Without winners, there wouldn't even be any god-d*mned civilization." -Woody Hayes
by tommotornado on Jul 15, 2010 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions
You're confusing the issues
The myles case was pretty cut and dry. He had already been in trouble, plus he hit an officer in this instance. As I said, I think Dooley has handled things well so far.
What will happen when things aren’t so cut and dry? I don’t know. And I’m not saying Dooley is going to go easy on anybody.
I think Dooley wants to do the right thing, but I’m just not sure he’ll be able to due to circumstances beyond his control.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
In that case, define the 'circumstances beyond his control'.
That ambiguity is only going to lead to unnecessary back-and-forth. Are you referring to something about the UT AD? Or are you simply trying to get us going again?
by David Hooper on Jul 15, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
When I said circumstances beyond his control, I was referring to the things I had already mentioned in my post: i.e. a lack of concrete evidence, murky details, etc. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
Glad you backed away from your suspicions and your implication that something nefarious is happening
We think Dooley has reacted strongly, promptly and fairly with the facts available to him. As a lawyer and a prior AD, we think he’s probably the best qualified person to address the situation – especially since
my standard is higher than what the law requires
In any event, surely a Bama fan and a Tennessee fan can agree on something? How about calling it the antithesis of the Urban Meyer approach to discipline?
COEXISTence is difficult when core beliefs are mutually exclusive and those on the other side keep blowing up buildings, people, etc.
Muhammed sez: "Don't Lase Me Bro!"
I don't know much about Urban Meyer's discipline
but what I do know is that he kicked out Cam Newton for stealing a laptop, and Cam Newton is now at Auburn. Also, Auburn has a running back, Eric Smith, that came up behind a dude, smashed his skull, and kicked him as he lay on the ground, bleeding. This is on camera. He was charged, but the case was sealed due to his status as a minor. That player, Eric Smith, served a 1 game suspension* from the “disciplinarian” Gene Chizik. That’s the Auburn Family for ya.
- It might have been 2 or 3, but whatever.
So maybe it should be the Anti-Chizik approach.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
I can't believe I offered you an olive branch and you didn't take it
Surely a Bama fan can hate the Gators right along with the Vols, but you can’t even agree to that. Wow.
COEXISTence is difficult when core beliefs are mutually exclusive and those on the other side keep blowing up buildings, people, etc.
Muhammed sez: "Don't Lase Me Bro!"
by memphispete on Jul 16, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
He is not here to agree with anything we say.
Official MCM Hater!
"If anyone asks you, you fixed my television. Now go!"
by gramsey712 on Jul 16, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Even so
I’m sure he’s over at their SB Nation blog with a smarmy attitude yet saying how terrible they are and what awful people their fans are when he goes back to RBR. Seems to be his m.o.
"I condone fun things" ~~ Cortland Finnegan
Hello ladies. Look at your man, now back to me, now back at your man, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me.
I don't hate Florida.
Sure, their fans are cocky and tend to wear jorts and the Tebow love fest in the media made me want to puke, but I have a begrudging respect for their program.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
Then you must not be a real Bama fan, because you have to hate Florida
not quite as much as Auburn, but certainly in your top 3.
COEXISTence is difficult when core beliefs are mutually exclusive and those on the other side keep blowing up buildings, people, etc.
Muhammed sez: "Don't Lase Me Bro!"
by memphispete on Jul 16, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
technically
Meyer didn’t kick Newton off the team, and yes I realize this does nothing to defend Meyer’s discipline or lack thereof. The Newton story isn’t as cut and dry as he stole a laptop and was removed. He was found with a stolen laptop, after his was destroyed when his room was flooded. He supposedly bought it from some friend of a friend, but whatever. The most serious charges were all dropped, but after the event, and more importantly the presence of John Brantley, all compelled Newton to transfer. Would he have actually played again for Florida? There’s no way to know…
I got my own fanpost
I’m honored, and I’ll go ahead and copy my response to this in the original thread
fair enough
and well said. I began my first comment with this, and I’ll reiterate it now…"I’m not trying to get you guys stirred". Now I can understand how that could be hard to imagine, when you have a Florida fan on a UT blog sharing an opinion on an issue like this, but it truthfully wasn’t my intent. I read this blog pretty much daily, and have always been impressed with it. I still can’t believe you guys did that "worst games" thing. Either way, like I said above, I read the ESPN story and immediately came here to see what you guys were saying. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding the desire to know every detail, with the desire that loopholes can be found and these players be allowed to play on Saturday. Personally, I don’t think everyone in here is just interested in the truth, but that would be the case for any fanbase.
My point was, and remains a rather simple one. While the details are important, and obviously must be flushed out, the issue as a whole is maybe the worst story I’ve heard in connection with any "football school" and goes far beyond the Vol football team. I know I’m not alone here, after talking with both my Dad and brother, who are both crazy UT fans, that feeling is echoed by them as well. It may sound disingenuous coming from me, but the details of this story made me sick, and made me think that 7ish guys who would do this, don’t deserve to be on scholarship anywhere. I will say that the question of wanting someone capable of this, isn’t poor logic, it’s a fair question. I don’t agree that everyone is capable of that. Sure everyone is capable of making mistakes, which is I believe your point, but not everyone is capable of continuing to kick a man, after you’ve knocked him unconscious in the street.
At this point, every program has "people" like this, and the reasons for that are varied. Personally I think Meyer has been a bit too lenient with his discipline, and I hope for UTs sake that Dooley doesn’t make the same mistake. I don’t think he will. This conversation was the only thing I was looking for with my initial post. Ya’ll take care.
We are actually interested in the truth.
Not sure why a Florida fan would have a hard time believing that…. /he asks cynically…
COEXISTence is difficult when core beliefs are mutually exclusive and those on the other side keep blowing up buildings, people, etc.
Muhammed sez: "Don't Lase Me Bro!"
by memphispete on Jul 16, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
CODE ORANGE. bobo's right: Florida cannot handle the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo&feature=related
HONOR. CODE. LOYALTY.
COEXISTence is difficult when core beliefs are mutually exclusive and those on the other side keep blowing up buildings, people, etc.
Muhammed sez: "Don't Lase Me Bro!"
forgot... language warning on the admission of the code red.
COEXISTence is difficult when core beliefs are mutually exclusive and those on the other side keep blowing up buildings, people, etc.
Muhammed sez: "Don't Lase Me Bro!"

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