Game expectations and results: an unnecessary defense of Dooley
I know that most of us here at RTT are still in wait and see mode regarding Coach Dooley. I love his personality and his ideas on how to build a team. However, he hasn't been anywhere long enough for them to grow to fruition, so we're still justifiably biding our time, watching, and hoping.
But some people have evidently decided that last night's game put Dooley on the hot seat. This is utterly insane, if for no other reason than that four coaches in five years is even worse than three coaches in three years. Apparently, we've all forgotten the state of the roster that he took over and that the last two losses occurred without the team's projected best player at three (!) position groups (Lathers, Jackson, Hunter).
We should all know the reasons that Dooley's expectations were low. His Tennessee teams just haven't had the talent of Kiffin's or Fulmer's. But when vague, amorphous comments about talent are the only arguments, it's hard to make much more of a case than "Isn't this obvious? Isn't believing otherwise insane?" I find the horrific state of the roster obvious and believing Dooley is underachieving (especially relative to Kiffin or post-2004 Fulmer) insane. Apparently, some others find it insane that there are those who are still willing to use the "rebuilding" excuse for the seventh year in a row. My personal feelings on the matter are that rebuilding was an excuse from 2005-2008, a reality in 2009, and a much bigger reality in 2010 and 2011. It's incorrect to use seven straight years, but that's not because it's incorrect now--it's because it was incorrect then. But again, once you get beyond attrition numbers, there's not much more to argue but "isn't it obvious?"
So I decided to look for something a little more hard and fast, and I decided on betting lines. If there's a more objective measure of a team's expected performance on a game by game basis, I don't know it. And if you know it, congratulations on your fortune. Of course, the lines can be off, and sometimes be obviously off. But they aren't set by Tennessee homers, and they're the most objective thing we've got. What do they say? Follow me past the jump (bullets at the end for the reading or time-impaired). . .
Overall records
- Philip Fulmer (2007-2008): 15-11
- Lane Kiffin (2009): 7-6
- Derek Dooley (2010-2011): 9-9
Records as a favorite
- Philip Fulmer (2007-2008): 12-3 [losses: 2007 Alabama (-1), 2008 UCLA (-7), 2008 Wyoming (-27)]
- Lane Kiffin (2009): 7-2 [losses: UCLA (-10), Auburn (-2)]
- Derek Dooley (2010-2011): 9-0
Records as an underdog
- Philip Fulmer (2007-2008): 3-8 [wins: 2007 Georgia (+1), 2007 Kentucky (+2), 2008 Vanderbilt (+3)]
- Lane Kiffin (2009): 0-4
- Derek Dooley (2010-2011): 0-9
Records in projected single digit games (+10 to -10)
- Philip Fulmer (2007-2008): 9-9 [wins: Georgia, Miss St (x2), South Carolina, Arkansas, Kentucky (x2), Wisconsin, Vanderbilt. losses: Cal, Florida (x2), Alabama (x2), Auburn, UCLA, South Carolina, LSU]
- Lane Kiffin (2009): 3-4 [wins: Georgia, South Carolina, Kentucky. losses: UCLA, Auburn, Ole Miss, Virginia Tech]
- Derek Dooley (2010-2011): 4-3 [wins: Ole Miss, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Cincinnati. losses: North Carolina, Georgia, Florida]
Records as a favorite in projected single digit games (0 to -10)
- Philip Fulmer (2007-2008): 6-2
- Lane Kiffin (2009): 3-2
- Derek Dooley (2010-2011): 4-0
Records as an underdog in projected single digit games (+10 to 0)
- Philip Fulmer (2007-2008): 3-7
- Lane Kiffin (2009): 0-2
- Derek Dooley (2010-2011): 0-3
What does that tell us? Well, when people say that Dooley hasn't been setting the house afire, they're right. He hasn't notched a single upset victory. But if they're pining away for the underdog success of Fulmer and Kiffin, they're ignorant. Derek Dooley has the best record in projected one score games in the last five years of Tennessee football and he's the only coach in the last five years who hasn't lost as a double-digit favorite. In fact, he hasn't lost as a favorite at all.
Remember those great upsets that made us so excited about Kiffin? They tell you something about how narrative can shape fan perspective. We were favored by a point against Georgia in 2009, and we were favored by 6 against South Carolina in 2009. That's more than we were favored against Kentucky in any of the last FOUR years. In fact, it's more than we were favored by against Cincinnati this year. But is Cincinnati being hailed as the victory that proves Tennessee moving in the right direction? Not hardly. And why? Because South Carolina has improved significantly since 2009, and perception of the game has changed to match. Fact is, Cincinnati may well be better than that Gamecock team, and they're certainly better than the 2009 UCLA team that beat us 19-15. UCLA's only other win over a bowl team: Temple. And lest the last couple weeks cloud our judgement, that was the same 2009 Temple that lost to FCS Villanova.
In the last five years, Tennessee has won as an underdog three times, all under Fulmer. Our biggest upset based on expectations at the time was against Vanderbilt. Yes, that Vandy team went to a bowl, but they also lost to Duke and Wake Forest. And apart from Vandy and Kentucky, Tennessee has notched just one upset victory since the 2006 opener, and that was as a measly one-point underdog to Georgia in 2007.
As a fan base, should we live with being constant underdogs and never managing an upset victory? Of course not. But in the last two years, we've had exactly three chances to pull an upset in a projected single digit game. I think we can all agree that the Florida and North Carolina games had their own unique circumstances, which leaves only Georgia. It leaves the fan base furious that we didn't manage to pull an upset in our only chance that didn't involve a key injury or ending so crazy as to spawn a rule change. That's no worse than our previous coach, whose only chance (excepting special Pilot circumstances) was a 37-14 thrashing at the hands of Virginia Tech, and who also lost two games as a favorite. It's arguably worse than 2008, where we had four chances before finally coming through with a shocking upset over a 7-6 Vanderbilt juggernaut, but I think all of us would agree that losses as favorites of 7 and 27 points do more than cancel that out. And, that aside, 1-3 is not clearly an improvement over 0-1.
So no, this isn't an acceptable state for Tennessee football. And yes, last night sucked. But it was one game. Let's at least have more than one chance to get the win that pulls us out of it before we go talking about hot seats. And let's realize that the chance won't be this year, as LSU, Alabama, South Carolina, and Arkansas should all be heavily favored over a Bray-less Tennessee.
Summary for the tl;dr crowd
- Since 2008, we're 1-8 as an underdog of less than 10 (0-8 as a dog of 10+)
- That win was over Vanderbilt.
- So let's not act like this is some new failure by Dooley. And be patient.
- Also, Dooley is 4-0 as a favorite of 0-10 points.
- Kiffin was 3-2.
- Fulmer was 6-2 in his last two years.
- So actually, Dooley is an improvement in winning games we should win.
- And 2008 Fulmer had a better winning percentage as a small favorite than 2009 Kiffin.
- Hahahahaha.
- We all want faster improvement, but let's not hold coaches to unreasonable expectations. Be patient. Again.
- If we're revisiting this post in December of 2012 and we're not laughing about how paranoid we were, it's time for hot seat talk.
- Right now, Barbara was right: it's idiotic. No other way to spin it.
- Also, this post will become obsolete in six days when we shock LSU. ;-)
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Perfect!
BloodSpite
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died as a small boy than to fumble this football." -John Heisman
"Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach". -Woody Hayes
by Joseph Stanley on Oct 9, 2011 11:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Everybody needs to take a long, collective breath.
We have regressed in the last three seasons. That is not a reflection on Dooley. It’s a result of depletions in the squad caused by a disturbing chain of events. The seeds of that were sown a long time ago.
During the timespan of 2010-2012, Dooley can be evaluated negatively on losing to teams we should beat. He’s doing what he should in this department. He can also be evaluated negatively on the level of effort. I see nothing wrong here either.
Those metrics will change for me beginning in 2013 and going through 2015. He will have to beat quality opponents.
When Majors came in 1977, he inherited one of the worst situations in the history of Tennessee football. Look how long it took him to get to the point of beating anybody of quality and being able to win the SEC. And, MAJORS WAS A PROVEN ENTITY having won the NC in 1976.
Fans who are irrationally exuberant about today’s Tennessee football are either (1) too young to have any perspective; or (2) ignorant of the situation.
Reasons for #2 are quite varied, I’m sure.
Thanks for bringing some sense to the debate.
Good post
I don’t know if its fair to call people ignorant, but I’m not going to call for a new coach after a season and a half. I suppose that’s how some people deal with their pain- by pointing the blame on somebody and screaming.
Me? I choose to accept our program’s current place among the conference teams fromý Lexington, Nashville, and the Magnolia State. Smoke and mirrors and excuses can last for a while, but when you’re rebuilding for as long as we have been….maybe it’s not rebuilding. Maybe that’s where we are in the new SEC pecking order for the foreseeable future. When you get beat consistently by any team with a pulse….well, we are what our record and our track record says we are.
Of course, maybe I’m being overly-cynical since this is first time we’ve had a coach not in his first year since 08. Maybe he’ll pull in some high-calibur recruits this offseason, win a game or two that will energize the fans, and breathe some life into this program sooner than later. I’ll just believe it when I see it.
Maybe that’s just where I am after hearing things will be better for so long.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn’t matter. I’m amphibious." – Charles Shackleford
by Craig T on Oct 10, 2011 9:16 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
re: ignorant
I only used that term for a small sub-point, namely the act of pining for the underdog success we had under Kiffin. Because we had exactly zero underdog wins under Kiffin, so it’s ignorant to claim that we had underdog wins. This should not be controversial—it follows from the facts of the matter and the definition of “ignorant.” But if you aren’t doing that (as I hope most of the fan base wasn’t), it doesn’t apply to you.
Regarding moving back up from the spot just above Vandy, Kentucky, and Ole Miss. . . we’ve spent several years knocking ourselves down to that level. It’s going to take several years to climb out. How optimistic we should be about the prospects of climbing out is really a lot farther than I went, but I will repeat what I said earlier. We haven’t been rebuilding for seven years. . We were tearing down for five years, and started rebuilding last year. If this were really a seven year rebuilding project, it would already be a failure. But it isn’t. Rebuilding was an inaccurate excuse for a long time, and now it’s an accurate fact of the matter. Regarding whether it’ll succeed. . . as long as we have so many resources dedicated to it, I’ll continue to believe we’ll eventually come back. Not everybody has a 100,000 seat stadium and the biggest recruiting budget in the country.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Oct 10, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed
I don’t know how 2006 and 2007 could be considered rebuilding years as those were pretty veteran teams as was the 2008 team if people would bother to remember correctly. The 2008 team was expected to challenge for the SEC East with our star back-up QB finally the starter and shiny new OC…no more predictable Cut ball. 2009 was more tear down than rebuild and 2010 was simply damage control. Meanwhile the 2007 class that was supposed to be the base for a new run ended in utter ruin and the 2008 calls which should be anchoring our roster with Senior talent was a non starter that just deteriorated from there and the 2009 class hasn’t ended up much better after disastorous attrition. That leaves us with a couple of contributors from 2008, a few from 2009 and the bulk Freshman and Sophomores.
How anyone could expect this team coached by anyone to accomplish much more than it has are simply dilusional.
I really like the recruiting job this staff is doing and look forward to a much brighter future.
2009 was rebuilding at the time
in hindsight, it was tearing down, because of the coaching change.
the others. . . just like you said, people forget that we were among the favorites in the East in 2008 and were the favorites in the SEC (#3 in the country) in 2005.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Oct 11, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly the analysis I would expect from you
Excellent post, my boy. I have seen nothing but positives in the way CDD has handled his job in spite of the “downers”. Dismissing our best defensive player is probably in great part responsible for our plague of long (catastrophic) plays, but was unquestionably the right thing to do. Having the injury bug focus on our best players is hardly a coaching shortfall.
The ex-jock talking head from ESPN pointed out, as have others here, that there is a huge difference in strength and endurance between 18 and 19 year olds and 21 and 22 year olds with 2 or 3 more years of college level S & C work.
Even the critics seem to acknowledge marked improvement in our performance over last year. Eventually that improvement will result in records worthy of Tennessee.
by springtime-of-my-senility on Oct 10, 2011 11:13 AM EDT reply actions
"...so we're still justifiably biding our time, watching, and hoping."
But, aren’t we still Vol fans? I know I am. We owe the university more than that. We owe them our allegience. They have mine. I know there’s only one Nick Saban in the world. Just like there was only one General Neyland. I am a Vol fan til the end of my days. I support Dooley with everything that I am, and would LOVE to meet him, soi I can shake his hand and thell him that WE are behind him, and to keep his head up and keep doing what he’s doing. SHAME on all of you who don’t feel the same way.
GBO!!!
well said
BloodSpite
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died as a small boy than to fumble this football." -John Heisman
"Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach". -Woody Hayes
by Joseph Stanley on Oct 10, 2011 9:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
that line describes our expectations
not our support
sorry if it was unclear
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Oct 10, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
also, I'm a HUGE Dooley fan
but I admit he hasn’t proven that he’ll be successful. Neither has he given us reason to think he’ll fail. Still too early to tell. But he has my full support, and will as long as I am convinced he has the potential to be the coach we need (which hopefully is a long time)
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Oct 10, 2011 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I got your meaning:)
While Peek may have gotten confused I think what he said was awesome… We are still Vols fans and we owe them our allegiance.
Every time I start gnashing my teeth over fair weather fans its nice to come here and get and breathe a sigh of relief :)
BloodSpite
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died as a small boy than to fumble this football." -John Heisman
"Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach". -Woody Hayes
by Joseph Stanley on Oct 11, 2011 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Great post. Made me sign up for a screen name so I could say thanks!
by Neyland law Vol on Oct 10, 2011 10:49 PM EDT reply actions
thanks!
and welcome! hang around and participate—it’s lots of fun! too many exclamation points!
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Oct 10, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
So a guy I know at seminary here in KY who's also from Knoxville
comes up to me tonight during intramural bball and immediately says, “Have you read this post on Dooley’s wins vs the spread on this blog I found?”
Well done.
Didn't a similar scenario occur in regards to a certain lengthy and quite comprehensive post on college tennis?
::patting self on back::
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Oct 11, 2011 7:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
/everyone turns pro
Formerly 'snail. You get used to it after a while.
by Chris Pendley on Oct 11, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
//becomes jaded and bitter
///hired at GVX
by David Hooper on Oct 11, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice post I_S
Using vegas spreads was absolutely the right approach for an objective analysis. Well done.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Oct 11, 2011 7:18 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Is Dooley an Idiot?
He still needs and deserves a chance but at some point we have to start questioning his decisions.
This guy said it well
http://blacknash.com/?p=350
I don't know if you've read these other articles, but a lot of us are questioning some of his decisions
that said, it’s fairly obvious that he’s not an idiot. and he still has until at least the end of next year to turn things around. So, while we can question and analyze and everything (we’re a blog, it’s what we do), anyone calling for firing is being rash and counterproductive.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Oct 23, 2011 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions

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