It Has To Be Next Year
by Will Shelton on Nov 26, 2011 5:03 PM EST
in Tennessee Volunteer Football
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First thing's first: congratulations to Kentucky. How it happened or the records of the teams involved are always less important than the end result, and today the Cats got the one they've been waiting for. This is their day and there's nothing we can or should say to keep them from enjoying it.
As for Tennessee, the first word that should be used is embarrassing, and today is the first time I've used it to describe a result under Derek Dooley. But the Vols earned it, losing to a Kentucky team that hadn't played within a possession of any other non-Ole Miss SEC team this fall, played a wide receiver at quarterback, and was outgained today 276-220. The Vol defense adjusted well after the first drive, but the moment that swung the game was a fumble by Raijon Neal out of the wildcat package on second and goal at the eight yard line. Not only did that play prevent a UT scoring opportunity, but it allowed Kentucky to take advantage of a momentary lapse by the defense on an eight play, 77 yard touchdown drive that would end up being the difference.
Neal's fumble was the second of three turnovers - Tyler Bray, who was sick and it showed, fired an early interception that didn't end up hurting Tennessee. But his final interception was on fourth and 17 to end the game, a sad end to a sad game and a sad season.
Dooley has been saying in the post-game that the Vols aren't very good, and he's right. But that now becomes more of his responsibility than the circumstance he simply walked in to. The Tennessee program has suffered through a three year recruiting failure from 2007-09, the natural attrition that comes from three head coaches in three years, and injuries to its best players in 2011. While Derek Dooley should be and certainly will be held accountable for today's result, which was completely unacceptable, a summary judgment of the Dooley Era is still impossible; we still don't have enough information, and Dooley still shouldn't be judged on the whole with the situation he walked in to and what he's able to do with backup quarterbacks against the most brutal schedule an SEC East team could possibly face. Given the situation he inherited, anybody that tells you they can fairly and intelligently say they know for certain Derek Dooley isn't the man for this job is either overreacting or trying to get more readers/listeners. You can't know yet. None of us can. We don't have enough information. It's not fair to put it on him.
But this is the last time I'll be making that argument after a loss.
2012 now becomes "the year" - not just the year when we expect the Vols to show the improvement we've been waiting on, but the year they'll have to, or it will probably cost Derek Dooley his job.
Is it fair that a guy who walked in to what Dooley walked in to should get only three years to fix it? Probably not - there are still some among the local media and even among the fanbase that, before today, said Dooley needed at least four years before we should really judge him.
But fair went out the window today. The loss to Kentucky not only removes whatever confidence - real or imagined - this team built with the dramatic win over Vanderbilt, and not only removes the possibility of sustaining momentum in a bowl game...but now, we all turn to 2012 and say we've been patient enough. You lose to Kentucky, you lose the benefit of the doubt. Now it's time to show us.
Here's the thing too: you can't just say, "He needs four years" independent of what the team looks like. From a distance, the 2013 Vols should be worse than the 2012 Vols. Consider the possibility that after next season, Tyler Bray, Da'Rick Rogers, and Justin Hunter all go pro. You would also be losing Mychal Rivera and Dallas Thomas, which means your offense would have to rebuild with a new quarterback, new left tackle, and without its top three receiving targets, two of which are clearly game-changers. The Vols will also lose Prentiss Waggner, Eric Gordon, and Izauea Lanier in the secondary. (EDIT: Gordon and Lanier will be redshirt juniors, not seniors next season)
It's not to say that it's Dooley's fault the 2013 Vols might be worse; every program has a natural ebb and flow, no team gets better every single season. But if Tennessee struggles next year, no one will look ahead to a 2013 team without all of its best offensive players and say, "Let's give it one more try." It's unfortunate, but it's just part of it: the perceived absence of all of those guys will make fans far less patient. It happened to Buzz Peterson in basketball: the 2004-05 Vols graduated Brandon Crump and Scooter McFadgon, which at the time made many of us say, "If Buzz couldn't win with those guys, how will he win without them?"
It's not about a number. You can't say, "Dooley has to win eight next year or he's gone." Because, which eight?
I'll say this: if expansion doesn't change the schedule dramatically and the Vols still play Florida in mid-September, that game is going to matter a tremendous amount. It's not win-or-you're-fired, but Dooley's narrative can go one of two very different ways in that game. We'll come looking for the payoff for our patience. If we get it, most of us will celebrate and jump on board. If we don't, we'll say, "See? I knew he wasn't the man for the job, it's been there all along."
Make no mistake: the 2012 Vols should be good. The offense returns ten starters including a healthy Justin Hunter, hoping to re-create the magic we saw against Cincinnati in September of this year. And a defense that may have even overachieved a tiny bit this season returns nine starters not including Herman Lathers, with a big hole to be filled at defensive tackle and the persistent question of "which four guys?" in the secondary. The schedule should be more kind. The Vols should be better. And they should be expected to be better. And Derek Dooley would probably tell you that next season, that bamboo better grow.
But as we can't beat Kentucky right now, perhaps we should just start with NC State.
As the schedule stands today, that's who the Vols will face next, 280 days from now in, of course, the Georgia Dome in Atlanta, where everything always goes so well for the orange and white. 280 days of another good recruiting class, injuries healing up, this year's freshmen taking on greater roles, and another dose of strength and conditioning for the whole team. 280 days of relentless pursuit of continuous improvement.
Dooley had the truest phrase to define this thing three months ago: OPPORTUNITYISNOWHERE. Which one is it? We don't know yet. But in 280 days, we're going to find out once and for all.
I hope Derek Dooley is the man for this job.
Go Vols.
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pretty much all of this
not making a bowl should guarantee Herman Lathers a medical redshirt though, right?
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 5:13 PM EST reply actions
Its so simple...
He just needs to change the orange pants. Surely now you are on board with the voodoo black magic curse that is obviously on those slacks right? If he wears khaki next year the vols win 8+. If he stays with the orange pants(which would be insane) they will be .500 or less.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 26, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
I agree. Dooley burned his fourth year today.
He can’t be fired, but there are some very big concerns in this household about whether he’s the answer. We lost to a wide receiver running a high school offense today.
Bray deserves a lot of blame for today, but he was sick and still not fully recovered. There has to be blame somewhere.
I’m just really hurting right now, as I’m sure we all are. Probably better off if I say as little as possible.
Holdin' it down on enemy grounds.
Anti-Snail on offense; Give me a slobberknocker, or give me death!
I still won't say anything about Dooley
except that he’s not guaranteed 2013 and that he completely lacks ability to motivate this team. Whether that’s on this team or him remains to be seen, and that’s something we’ll watch in 2012.
But Dooley is safe for now. I want to know which staff members are safe and which are not. Chaney, Hiestand, and Russell have some serious questions to answer, imo. Not sure we should toss them all (or even any of them), but we need to look hard.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
and, along those lines
who goes to make room for a RBs coach, which we obviously need?
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
Chaney today...
I was on the fence about Chaney, but after today I think we need to be look for another OC. I am really tired him putting us in bad down and distances with high risk throws on first down. He never seems to have a feel for the game, and his lack of dedication to running the ball is obvious. His willingness to be one-dimensional is puzzling, and such a philosophy would seemingly be at odds with what Dooley has stated he wants from the team.
I agree and disagree....
Not sold on Chaney. At all. But injuries and sickness are not his fault. Besides, I don’t think that yet another MAJOR coaching change is anywhere near what these kids need.
GBO!!!
Did you see the Florida vs Fulman (or however you spell it) game?
A team that is looking to spoil and is running an offense that was completely 100% unexpected can be successful. 10 points to that type of situation isn’t bad. Now, an offense only getting 7 points, that is bad.
He also burned
a certain freshman’s redshirt. That was a panic move that looks really bad right now.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 26, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
Gordon and Lanier
Are sophomores.
Holdin' it down on enemy grounds.
Anti-Snail on offense; Give me a slobberknocker, or give me death!
Dooley's equity
Its hard to imagine anything other than today’s loss that would have burned more of Dooley’s equity. A loss to Vandy would have been more palatable, in that Vandy does have some talent, and at least has a quarterback playing quarterback.
If he beats Kentucky today, he goes to a bowl, fires a couple of assistant coaches (Harry and Chaney?) and buys himself that extra year. Now, however, I think its time for him(in the parlance of the movie “Traffic”) to write two letters. http://www.wormtowntaxi.com/2009/01/write-two-letters.html
not yet
we can’t survive a coaching change this offseason. and we could still turn things around next season. if we don’t, we make a change, and we have some young talent and can hopefully draw in a nice new HC
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Kiffin left Dooley two letters...
one was a bunch of doodles of naked chicks, and the other was smeared in feces.
by Caban on Nov 26, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"And we could still turn things around next season"
The more I see Dooley coach, the less I agree with that statement. He started losing me with his decisions at the end of the Vandy game, and completely did with the end of this game. I was one of the biggest Dooley fans, but not any longer. I don’t see us ever being able to compete with the “big guys” with him as our coach. 2 cents.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
With what decisions at the end of the Vandy game?
The one where he couldn’t challenge the play? The game is out of his hands when the refs don’t know the first thing about football, or the rule book.
What else could happen???
What you think we might not play very well? Dooley has losing records everywhere he’s been, you think that’s gonna change with one more year? You’re gonna have a rude awakening next year if the powers that be don’t smarten up and pull out the check book and ad about $2 million to the current offer to bring in a coach that CAN win in the SEC…
if we fire him right now, we're idiots, we won't be able to hire a half-decent coach
and we’ll have to go through all this youth and attrition for yet another 2-3 years. It’s the worst move we can make.
Dooley has lost everywhere he’s been, and he’s had ridiculous youth and injuries everywhere he’s been. I’m still not convinced he’s going to be bad with an older, healthier team. But even if he is, the gains we get in getting another recruiting class into the program and provide a little stability will be essential in attracting a great coach to take the job.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
"Won't be able to hire a half-decent coach"
That’s what got us into this mess. I’m hoping that we now have an athletic director with a little more clout.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
by birdjam on Nov 26, 2011 6:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
we do have an AD with more clout
but he has to make the move at the right time
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
And better when we are down now...
Than to wallow in mediocrity for another year or two and have to hit rock bottom again with another coaching change then.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Not happening...
and a lot of coaches who would be very interested in UT if we gave Dooley a share fake would be extremely concerned for their own job security at Tennessee. We were in a position where Dooley was all but unfireable unless we were to go like 3-9
this
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Came real close to 4-8, but firing Dooley isnt the answer.
He just needs better players. He will improve as a coach going into next year. People talk about the inexperience of the players but UT also has a coach that is inexperienced at this level of coaching.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
We also came real close to 8-4 last year.
______________________________________________
Boom. Here comes the Boom. Braydy or not. Here comes the boy from the West.
Why do you think UT's going to get a coach better than Dooley if he's fired now?
he has literally 1 recruiting class on the team that you can call his own. He stepped into a program that just went 5-7, and lost probably 70% of the team over 2 years.
I agree. You have to keep him even if he isnt the guy for the job.
TN needs this next recruiting class more than they need a new coach right now.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 26, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Yep...
let’s not sabotage a top ten class. Do that, and we are in deep isht… could end up in a vicious cycle where we keep doing this every 2 or 3 years.
We already are in deep.... IMO
and this cycle is going to keep repeating until we fix the problem, and that has been Dooley’s decision making and coaching.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
It's called rebuilding for a reason
There’s no guarantee of a nice straight linear line of improvement. This was the season that I had earmarked when Dooley took over as the one that could be the ugliest. You could see this season coming from a mile away.
Stay the course, worst case is someone else inherits a pretty nice roster in 2013.
True,
but we should be able to see improvements this season from last season (not necessarily from W/L but overall play). Across the board, the team has regressed though, and that is on the coaching staff.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
the reason we've regressed this year is because our key contributors have been injured, not because of the coaching staff
the coaching staff gets a pretty hefty bit of blame for losing today, but they’re not the reason we were worse in October than in September
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
Our O-Line and Running backs
Have taken a drastic step backwards, even though it is basically the same as last season.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
definitely not like we're the only team to run on LSU or anything
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
92 years per game rushing, 25 yards behind the 11th worst rushing team in the SEC
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
compare our running under Bray last year to our running under Bray this year
and tell me it’s worse.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
I'll repeat myself again
Improvement in young players dominating the roster will not be a nice, neat linear line. It’s going to come in fits and starts with some steps back along with steps forward. Next year we could be scratching our heads in amazement wondering where the heck that team came from.
there's a part of me that thinks this will happen
there’s a growing part that thinks Dooley might not be the guy, but the part that thinks we’ll all be amazed at how quickly we become good is still winning right now
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Since sports is supposed to be fun and it is entertainment not my life
I like to take the optimistic view until the facts dictate that it is unreasonable to do so. So I see a lot more reasons to expect next year to be really, really fun than than I do sitting in a sulk convinced that it is all doom and despair and agony on us.
I also see no benefit in taking the cynical and bitter approach of Hatvol and the gang on 8th Maxim.
they're actually not cynical and negative if you go to the bball section
they’re just smug and superior and made judgment on Dooley before he coached a single game, so there’s serious confirmation bias going on
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
True
Hatvol hated Pearl from the get go so it colored a lot of what he used to say and also seems to influence how he views the new coach so far in that he’s not Pearl.
yeah
I actually genuinely think hatvol has some really good insight, if you can wade through all of his crap. but he’s smug and obnoxious and apt to serious confirmation bias
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
If you could skip his 4 anti-Pearl post game points and his anti-halftime show point, the other five were generally very knowledgeable.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
this long
and no longer. see: Will’s original post
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
I said the same thing a month ago....
and everybody said I was out of my mind. It took us losing to Kentucky for Dooley to prove my point?
GBO!!!
you lost me
what point did you make that got proven that everybody said was crazy?
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
That most of this season is on the coaches, and lackluster management.
We’ve had the same BS going on in Knoxville since about 2002. I say, if the blame is to be placed on any ONE man, it should be put on Hamilton. Now he’s gone. Things should, hopefully, start changing around here.
GBO!!!
but I didn't agree with that
I said that “rebuilding” applies through this year, and won’t apply next year
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
TN is around 15th right now, but still I agree even that is too good to pass up.
That is a true top 15 class with quality getting focus over quantity. TN has 19 commits which has them the 15th class thus far as opposed to say a Miami team in the top 10 with 29 commits(quantity not quality). Dooley has very little talent on this team. Recruiting will be everything. Lastly I think the most important thing UT needs to succeed in the SEC right now when they are playing with a bunch of lower 4* and 3* guys vs LSU, Bama, and UF type talent is a mobile QB. I know Bray will probably be a pro but if you dont have nearly the talent on the field as the opponent you cant afford to go without that added dimension a mobile guy can give you. Its the ultimate neutralizer.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
"Dooley has very little talent on this team"
I completely disagree. If we say this a million times, it doesn’t make it true.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 7:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
There are gradations of talent.
We have talent. We have enough talent, if we stay healthy, to go 8-4 next year. We do not have Bama/LSU level talent across the board yet.
No we're idiots if they don't!
We just lost to a team that played WITHOUT a QB. You know that right? That has NOTHING to do with youth. It’s coaching, or a lack there of. It’s obvious that even the team don’t believe in him or any of the coaches for that matter. You wanna win again in Tennessee? Expect to pay out $3.5 to $4.0 mil to get a top tier coach like other top teams have done. You get what you pay for. How long do you think Saban would let Palardy pretend to be a kicker??? All I’m saying.
Saban...
would let Palardy pretend to be a kicker until they got one better. Sorry we were unable to find a walkon who could go better than 9-13 in the middle of the season.
We got Dooley because it was 2 weeks before signing day when we were forced into hiring a coach to try and salvage a recruiting class. It had absolutely nothing to do with being unwilling to pay, we tried to get a few name coaches… we just failed at it.
Fire Dooley right now, and you may end up having to hire another guy whose numbers aren’t much different. $4mil a year may not be enough to attract a Chris Peterson or Gary Patterson if they are afraid for their job security here.
Come talk to me next year..
When we do no better… I predicted this loss due to a coaching staff that it’s team no longer believes in! And the guy they called a couple weeks ago about an hour or so before kick off that came in and kicked is more believable as a kicker. I’ll stop now before I wake you, Lord knows you must be loving this dream your having that Dooley is gonna turn around this mess… Never gonna happen!!!
While I agree Dooley needs to be fired...
to say that walk on is a better option at kicker than Palardy is laughable at best…
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Good grief...
Try and actually make a cogent argument rather than just randomly talking crap about people. If you get legitimately mad at during an argument, that usually means you are unable to defend your position.
pretty much this
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
BloodSpite
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died as a small boy than to fumble this football." -John Heisman
"Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach". -Woody Hayes
by Joseph Stanley on Nov 26, 2011 7:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Word on that
It’s why I stay mad around here…don’t possess the vernacular to keep up with you budding Hemingways (don’t substitute your favorite Lost Generation author please).
by GhostDance on Nov 26, 2011 9:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not mad at all...
Look at the facts, Dooley has a losing record “EVERYWHERE”. Palardy couldn’t kick his was out a door, that’s apparent. His kicks don’t make it over the heads of the line of scrimmage. That’s a fact… AND UNFORTUNATELY YOU ARE UNWILLING TO SEE HOW WE GOT OUR A$$E$ HANDED TO US BY A TEAM WITHOUT A QB… That’s laughable!!!
tell you what
Go home, get off the internet, and don’t look at anything UT football for a week or two. or until Sherlock Holmes comes out. Then get your emotions under control, and realize that it’s not productive for either conversation or yourself personally to be a slave to the exact same emotions three hours after a tough loss to swallow.
And when you come back, realize that if UT fires Dooley, it doesn’t matter what kind of money is thrown out, but Saban isn’t going to come running. Neither is Les Miles, Urban Meyer, Petrino, Chip Kelly, or Chris Peterson. Lane Kiffin would be stabbed the moment he steps off the plane into KTown. you’ll realize that UT is not as good right now as Alabama, LSU, Texas, TAMU, Arkansas, Georgia, even South Carolina and Florida. And that has nothing to do with Dooley. That has to do with the fact that Fulmer’s last two recruiting classes were almost entirely crap (some obvious exceptions), and half of those left when Kiffin came in, 10 more good players either left because Kiffin’s an ass or got kicked off because of Kiffin, and half of those left when Kiffin left or got kicked off because they couldn’t pass drug tests.
At the same time, UT had one of the hardest schedules in the country this year, and oh yeah, lost one of the best WR’s in the country in week 3, and lost its starting qb (and best qb on the team by far) in game 5. That’s bringing a knife to a nuclear bomb fight, and Rambo couldn’t win against that.
Yep...
Couldn’t even beat a QB’less Kentucky…
so?
the wildcat is hard to defend, particularly when it’s run often. but the fact that we lost to Kentucky is irrelevant. If you want to fire Dooley because of this, fine. Name a coach that would actually come to UT after that. Would that coach coming and Dooley leaving make some players leave? How would that be a good thing? Or if you’re going to blame Dooley, three months ago, would you have said that Hunter being on IR would spell disaster for the team? How about Bray?
you can’t have it both ways. either Dooley’s a complete failure and we should’ve been 8-4 with Matt Simms as starting QB and every frat house has the next Vanderjagt sitting in it. Or, or, the year sucked, rash decisions aren’t going to change anything, injuries ruined the season, but Dooley has to be our coach for at least another year, if not two more years.
Wow
I go on Rocky Top Talk to have calm discussions about the team. Now I’m not saying I’m happy with the loss to Kentucky, but if you want to spout irrational suggestions. Then I suggest you go to KNS’s website
how 'bout you respond to my reasons that we can't fire him now?
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
I'm praying
that Dooley can get this right next year and make drastic improvements – win some big games, get some upsets, get rid of these ridiculous second half collapses. Because the thought of another coaching change and the rebuilding that goes with it is a mighty scary thought. If it has to be, then it has to be though. But y’all are right, next year is the year.
Won't be nearly as bad if he have to get a new coach again...
Fulmer’s last classes were exceptional failures, and Kiffin then started running guys off. Then Kiffin recruited a bunch of guys who all either sucked or screwed up.
We won’t have nearly the attrition with a clean break if it happens after next season.
Thanks for the congrats.
I know it’s no consolation, but I think your basketball team looks great so far.
Maybe, at least for a year or so, we can call it a rivalry in football again. Not really, probably, but at least we get to fake it for a while, and 26 years is a long time.
Good luck to y’all.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I've always thought
that UT-UK would make a tremendous all-around rivalry if we could ever change our respective fates in basketball/football. If Cuonzo keeps it going and y’all keep improving, we may have it.
by Will Shelton on Nov 26, 2011 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Vandy is up 34-7 on Wake Forest
this is what we should be doing in a bowl to a mid-level ACC team. and would be if we would’ve shown up today
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 5:56 PM EST reply actions
I am so over talking about "the big picture." Today should have been a win and a bowl berth.
I agree with everything in your post, but this is just almost too much to accept.
What was a sense of potential future success
based on hope and winning against the teams we were favored to beat
while losing to those we were favored to lose
while coming close vs LSU a year ago
and knowing we were hurt by injury this year
all came apart today and sucked the life out of the little support that remained.
The worst SEC record in history came against UK with a WR at QB
It just could not be any worse for Dooley because it will fester and grow the entire off season.
But it’s the grave he and his staff dug today so they have to win their way out
I hope they do but I have no confidence at this point.
good post Will
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Do the players not have any responsibility for the way they play???
I know you can’t fire them, but still, holding coaching staffs totally responsible for the erratic play of Freshman and Sophomores seems a bit irrational.
No idea what this reply has to do with my observation
about the situation Dooley now finds himself in
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
ECU at Marshall going to OT
both are fighting for a bowl game, and ECU just tied the game with 14 seconds left.
I guess that makes sense...
)udgement call and all that (keyboard broken so I’m missing the letter :p haha)
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
Next year?
UT will not become a good team again, until we can do 2 things. Run the football and pressure the QB. I have zero assurance that we will be able to do either of these things again next year, regardless of a healthy Hunter, Bray and Lathers. We don’t beat anybody good in 2012 if we can’t run the ball and sack the QB. Period. I
Also, going to the wildcat on 2nd and goal in the 3rd quarter there was so fulmerized stupid. We could have escaped with an ugly win if that for that beyond stupid play call.
I would kill for a vintage UT D-line...
just imagining our line getting pressure without needing help almost brings a tear to your eye
Stop Bashing Dooley!
I vehemently disagree with those that say Dooley is not the right coach for UT. He inherited a mess started by Fulmer and exacerbated by Kiffin and all his nonsense. A brutal schedule made worse by extensive injuries and lack of depth, and we still had a shot at 6-6 and a bowl game.
Yes, I agree that today’s loss was preventable, but even there let’s give Kentucky some credit: this was their bowl game and they won it. Bray was sick? That helps explain his worst game of the year.
Vols need a power running back and a stronger pass rush. More than anything we need another strong recruiting class and some depth to help us compete in the SEC. We have many quality players returning and it will be a much better year in 2012. Enough with all the Dooley bashing—he’s a good coach and he needs two more years to get it right…and he will.
he doesn't have two more years if next year is 5-7 or 6-6
but I do think he can get it done. whether he will, I can’t say for sure
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
True but I have a hard time seeing that happen
But if it did, I agree with you.
I do too
I really do think Dooley can be the guy, and I think he starts to show it next year. But it’s also time to start talking about what he needs to do before we look in another direction, whether or not we think he can/will do it
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
basically...
it is no longer verboten to discuss the possibility of Dooley failing based on evidence thus far.
right
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
Not verboten but still too early
As IS pointed out above, if 2012 is a repeat of 2011 than we have a full on problem. I’d suggest we just sit back, have sip or three of your favorite Tennessee whiskey and let 2012 play out because Dooley will be the coach regardless and might as well not go piss in the well over the next 6 months or so.
Where do you see he's a good coach???
I really want to know where you see a good coach? Just because he’s morally driven amd has some some good sayings does not a good coach make…
Still waiting...
Where do you see a good coach??? Give me something….
Oh I don't know..
Maybe with the fact that he brought us to a bowl game the first season he was here?? Why don’t you get off the bashing wagon and think about what we’ve had to go through this year. Cheney is who needs to be fired, not Dooley.
Doesn't matter, he's our coach next year, either the team will be better or his seat will be warm.
All these arguments at this point are simply academic and counter productive.
2013 roster may not be such a drop off
Will said…“Consider the possibility that after next season, Tyler Bray, Da’Rick Rogers, and Justin Hunter all go pro. You would also be losing Mychal Rivera and Dallas Thomas, which means your offense would have to rebuild with a new quarterback, new left tackle, and without its top three receiving targets, two of which are clearly game-changers. The Vols will also lose Prentiss Waggner, Eric Gordon, and Izauea Lanier in the secondary.”
Da’Rick needs to grow up before he’s a top round pick, Hunter might need another year after missing this one, we have better tight ends coming in behind Rivera and doubt Dallas even starts next year. I seriously hope we’ve recruited over Waggner, Gordon and Lanier by 2013.
If Bray leaves we have an experienced and talented Worley and the QB we’re recruiting this year might be as good or better than Worley. By 2013 we’ll have a mostly Senior line and Lane will be a Junior and this year’s RB recruits will be Sophomores. The defense might very likely be much better in 2013 than 2012.
I guess what I’m arguing is that I don’t expect a big drop off in 2013 even if a few players go pro.
given what we had this year without Bray and Hunter
if they go early, I will worry, no matter who we have coming back
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Offensively yes
But I think the 2013 defense has an opportunity to be the best we’ve seen in years. That and a Senior O-line might more than make up for loss of Bray and Hunter.
if 2012 turns out to be a 2008-type season (which, as I've said, I don't expect)
I’m not above suggesting Justin Wilcox for HC. He’s done some really good work with what he has here, and he’s only getting better.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
There's going to be a purge if Dooley leaves.
Formerly 'snail. You get used to it after a while.
by Chris Pendley on Nov 27, 2011 7:27 AM EST up reply actions
I know, and we'd want someone with HC experience
but I really like Wilcox
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 8:52 AM EST up reply actions
Just wanted to add one more thing from the 'Cats perspective
It was real, real windy today in Commonwealth, which explained some of Bray’s uncharacteristic inaccuracy. Obviously the wind was a much bigger detriment to y’all than it was against us.
Nothing but friendliness and manners from Tennessee fans after the game. Same thing I experienced when I was in Knoxville last year. Y’all are making it more difficult for me to stereotype you in the manner I would prefer.
Sposed to be SEC
I know Will suggested not to put a number on it
but unless there’s a minimum of 7 wins next year, I fear Dooley will be out.
"I don't want one of those guys who'll drive in two but let in three every game." Casey Stengel
by tnredneckyankeesfan on Nov 26, 2011 7:42 PM EST reply actions
I would agree with that
Caban and I were running scenarios near the end of the in-game thread. There are 8-4 scenarios in which I might jump on the Fire Dooley bandwagon and 7-5 scenarios in which I’m pretty happy to keep him. But I think 9-3 and 6-6 are pretty clear
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
agree with this
8-4 probably earns him 2013 regardless and 7-5 will depend on some variables.
8-4 with no marquee wins (say, best win over South Carolina) and a loss to UK or Vandy
and I’m not 100% convinced. but in general, I think that’s about right
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
Based on next year's schedule off the top of my head
An 8-4 record with a loss to Vandy or UK would almost dictate a marquee win, at least over UGA and SC.
I'm not convinced South Carolina is a marquee win next year
but I did say “say, best win over South Carolina” in my hypothetical
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
Let's look at the 4 possible losses
UF, UA, UGA, SC, Arkansas would be the most likely losses
Add in a loss to Vandy or UK and we have to win 2 of the above 5 for an 8 win season. One of those two wins would be pretty solid.
oh, no. don't you see?
only wins over UA or LSU count as marquee wins. Maybe Arkansas. and if they’re not ranked top 10 next year, then they’re no longer marquee wins. duh…
it's not yet decided whether we keep Arkansas or play A&M
but beating a top 15 Arkansas team and a top 15 Carolina team is a lot different than beating a 6-6 A&M team and a 7-5 Carolina team. We don’t know what those teams will be like, so it’s hard to tell what will be marquee. but I think it’s possible that we only have three marquee teams on the schedule next year, depending on how things shake out
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
It will also depend on how we compete in those losses
8-4 byes him another year easily regardless of the value of the wins.
does also depend on that
I’m just saying that there are 8-4 scenarios where there’s a legit question as to what we should do moving forward. and there are 7-5 scenarios where he’s a lock to stay.
But 9-3 is safe, and 6-6 is gone
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
9-3 safe and 6-6 gone are no brainers
I just think 8-4 is also safe. Maybe leaves some room for grumbling, but safe.
I think 8-4 is 90% safe, possibly more
but there’s a way for it to happen that leaves the question open, albeit an unlikely way
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
a 9-3 season that gets Dooley fired for play on the field isn't
I’m just saying I’m not willing to say anything 100% definitive about what we do at 8-4 or 7-5. I will say definitively about 9-3 and 6-6
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
9-3
Let me start this thread by saying I am firmly in the corner that I think Dooley is a good coach and contrary to alot of other posters I for one have been pretty happy with his in game decisions. There is only one to this point I have not liked and thats the 43 yard attempt by Palardy on Sat. I knew he was not going to make it before he kicked it and I think it was more likely to convert a fourth with Tauren Poole running straight into the line with no hole which I had no confidence in either. I have seen steady improvement in the defense all year and Sat I could clearly see lots of times when both AJ johnson and Curt Maggitt were out of position and still made some plays so I think they will be HUGE for us next year and with the return of Lathers will be major strength. Offensively if we don’t lead the SEC then thats on the coaches, nothing else to say about that. Even a serviceable RB with such an experienced line should get us to the middle of the SEC in rushing and well passing with what we have coming back should be tops in the NCAA. All of this said I can’t see any scenario in which Dooley keeps his job with less than 8 wins. If he is a good coach which I really believe he is than 10 wins should not be unreasonable. I don’t just say this out of anger or unreasonable fan expectations. SC and FL will both see a lot of turnover. I am uncertain about GA for sure but that leaves only GA, AL, and Ark on the schedule that will have returning and experienced talent. Even AL loses alot of starters. With this said to lose more than 3 shows that Dooley is not on par with Miles, Saban, Spurrier and Petrino and its time to move on elsewise. That doesn’t mean that Dooley isn’t a good coach, its just the expectation at Tennessee is and always has been that we compete for Championships. And this league is more elite than ever therefore it is going to take an elite level coach to do that year in and year out! And after this year anything less than 8 wins is a failure. This is Tennessee! As I type this I still feel like its an unnecessary post because I firmly believe TN will play in Atlanta twice next year.
wow
I'm completely and totally shocked
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting comments from Poole &Austin Johnson
About poor attitude of the team this week/today. Poole talking about no one wanting to be out there today, &Johnson about poor week of preparation & how players were grumbling about not going to a good bowl.
God, I hope that’s not true. Speaks to lack of leadership within ranks, lack of command ofthe team from the head coach, & maybe more than a couple of bad apples on the roster.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn’t matter. I’m amphibious." – Charles Shackleford
by Craig T on Nov 26, 2011 9:06 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think it's just lack of senior leadership
Coaches don’t have near as much command over the team’s emotions as one would hope. As far as bad apples, I’m not entirely sure on that one either way. Expectations from September after playing cincinatti and montana are different than the reality after playing LSU/Alabama/Arkansas, and maybe the team set some goals that were based on those original expectations.
Also lack of maturity and Senior leadership
in not being able to rebound and get up for a consecutive rivalry game after a huge emotional win.
These are the tough lessons that a young team has to learn together on the fly.
I'm not an idiot
so with that said…. I understand this team is extremely young, injuries killed us, and Derek Dooley is not on the hot seat. This is a good, young coaching staff and with the players we have returning with valuable experience and pt…. I’d be shocked if these guys weren’t MUCH improved next season. I’ll see ya’ll in Atlanta September 1st! Go Vols! Beat The WolfPack!
Rocky Top Will Always Be Home Sweet Home To Me!
pretty much this.
Dooley said in september that they didn’t have any scars, well, they got enough gaping wounds to have plenty of scars.
I wouldn't go so far as "Dooley is not on the hot seat"
Another 5-7 or 6-6 season next year and there is no way he earns a shot for 2013.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
But yet....
Ok, my two cents. UT will most likely not be ranked next year. I don’t see it moving from maybe ranked 60th in the country or so to top 25, because it’s a pretty big jump. but this is the SEC. Auburn two years ago was literally one player away from winning the BCS title. Pretty much the same for last year’s LSU. Alabama it seems has simply reloaded. What happens if when the schedule comes out, it’s no easier than this year’s? UT isn’t a single off season away from winning the BCS title. It is two or three or maybe even four years away from that. And that’s the thing that needs to be remembered.
Probably 10 teams in the SEC next year think they’re either ready to go undefeated and win it all, or one year away. UT isn’t at that point yet, and even with big improvements, it’s still going to be a year or two away.
Good post
I agree with all of this post. Our first step has to be relevant in the chase for SEC East, then SEC championship, and all of that is 2-3 years minimum, let alone national championship talk.
Being relevant in the East
I could see next year, maybe. Georgia will be scary next year, but the rest of it as a whole i either the same as now or possibly weaker. It’ll all depend on the SEC west schedule, probably. if it’s like this year, well, another nightmare it is. if it’s Alabama and a few weak teams, who knows?
it won't be like this year
because LSU won’t be on it, and I think Arkansas has been counting on a whole lot of seniors
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
but who's a step away?
Who’s the next Auburn?
Who’s the next jeremiah Masoli?
I want to buy that there’s no way next year could be as tough a schedule as this year, but I can’t. This is the SEC, where so many teams are one player away (if that) from being very, very good. Look as Jeremiah Masoli or Cam Newton. they showed up, suddenly their teams were relevant.
it's not Texas A&M, and it's not Missouri
and those are the only two new teams that have a shot of coming onto our schedule. Missouri could be pretty decent, but not national championship good. And A&M lost everybody from a disappointing team this year
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not really including them
because they look, just from their depth chart, to be very, very, scary good next year. But I don’t think that it’s they’re one or two players away, they just needed as a whole another year to develop.
Ah gotcha, good question then.
I usually have no idea about those types of teams until I see them romping through their schedule.
24 to be exact
and a lot of those are key contributors
Depending on who goes pro
at Georgia and Alabama are the only two games I look at and say, “We’re overmatched in that game.” Florida is as bad as we are with more talent. We should’ve beaten South Carolina the last two years. Arkansas loses every receiver – ask me again in November. We don’t play LSU, we don’t play what should be a much improved Auburn who’s as young as we are.
We shouldn’t have to settle for “everyone else is better than us” next year, because only a couple of teams actually will be.
by Will Shelton on Nov 26, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
The way South Carolina dominated Clemson
it is a wonder we played as close as we did.
Well...
South Carolina is simply playing much better right now than when they played Tennessee. That game was the first after Carolina lost Marcus Lattimore, and was only Connor Shaw’s third start; the offense simply wasn’t clicking like it later did against Florida and Clemson. The defense is what won that game for Carolina.
Also, I think today’s game says a lot more about Clemson than Carolina.
by BrotherFlounder on Nov 27, 2011 2:13 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with this
Actually agree with this completely. That is why I believe that TN should win 10 games next year
No need to qualify...
Your original statement.
by HoldTheMayo on Nov 26, 2011 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
...anytime or any day or any game
I wish someone at ESPN would tell us what they find appealing about Lou Holtz. I try not to hear the horrible lisp and learn something I didn’t previously know, but neither ever happens.
Um. Will…I think KNS stole your headline.
by GhostDance on Nov 26, 2011 10:59 PM EST via mobile reply actions
The one from Marlon McKinney links back here
so it’s all good
by Will Shelton on Nov 26, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Mmmmmkay.
-putting up brass knuckles-
by GhostDance on Nov 26, 2011 11:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I was hanging out with two disinterested observers today
These are individuals I consider to be quite reasonable, and their opinions carry weight because they dont have a dog in the fight.
They thought we needed to clean house. And let’s be real guys, we have the resources to do that. Anybody who says otherwise is silly.
I’m no longer bending over backwards to defend that guy. His lovable loser role is thin on me. I wouldn’t lose a bit of sleep if the AD went a different direction.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 26, 2011 11:05 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
we have the resources to clean house
what we don’t have is a base of talent that will:
A. Be attractive to top coaches
B. Be able to survive the attrition that comes with a coaching change.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Which is why we ended up with Kiffin which led to Dooley
After the 2007 and 2008 classes any coach could see the looming roster issues. This was by far Kiffin’s best offer and the staff he promised and delivered on was the draw that made the gamble so intriguing. After his abrupt departure Hamilton didn’t have a lot of attractive options. A lot of people seem to gloss over those relevant facts. Dooley, at least, has improved the roster and seemed to have made a positive impact on the off field stuff which had become a huge problem.
The options available in January 2010...
…are no longer a relevant consideration. If Dooley sucks, then he sucks. Now you tell me: was the team prepared?
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:31 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
But I don't know if that's the coaches fault or the players
It’s a two way street. Coaches can coach their asses off but players have to respond and execute. I just don’t know. I think next year will give us more of the information we’re looking for.
I officially think I have enough information
I realize he isn’t going to be fired and I agree with the general consensus on here that it isn’t necessarily productive to bash him when he will likely be our coach next year. But it is equally silly to continue to reach for arguments bordering on the most tenuous of tenuous in order to defend him.
So, in sum, my opinion on Dooley has been formed based on the evidence at hand. A hypothetical prosecutor charging Dooley for incompetence as a coach will have met his burden of production in the trial. So, to me, the burden is back on Derek Dooley and his staff. He has run out of areas to reach for for excuses. The ball is in his court. He now has to convince me that he doesn’t suck. He has the burden of proof. He earned that procedural distinction this Saturday.
This is where I stand. Dude isn’t a good coach. My mind is made up. He has to unpersuade me.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 7:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So it is talent bases that attract coaches?
How did Notre Dame get a new coach? Or Michigan? Or Nebraska?
Or every school that isn’t in Texas, Southern Cal, or one of the States directly south of us? How do they attract coaches?
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:26 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Well they all don't play in the SEC for one thing
Notre Dame can recruit nationally, they don’t have a recruiting base issue. Michigan actually produces a lot of talent and they also dip into Chicago. What big name coaches has Nebraska hired? They took a chance on an assistant who was a Nebraska alumni.
you all are overlooking my point
Recruiting bases don’t attract coaches.
And, by the way, Michigan does not have a good recruiting base. Neither does Notre Dame. Neither does Oregon. And I could go on.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 10:38 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Oregon competes with USC for their talent. And....... that's about it.
Ohio State is Michigan’s biggest recruiting rival because Ohio is a big high school football ground. Tennessee goes into Georgia a ton, which has two prestigeous universities, and Florida, which has three, and — etcetc.
______________________________________________
Boom. Here comes the Boom. Braydy or not. Here comes the boy from the West.
Notre Dame always has talent
just look at how much success their new coach always has in year one or two. Michigan had plenty as well
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 9:06 AM EST up reply actions
their team this year has actually been a lot better than their record
but I was exaggerating a tad
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
financial resources aren't everything
we have all the financial resources necessary to make Bill Belichick head coach. But UT doesn’t have any of the other resources, most of all the confidence that a coach will be given an honest chance to put together a good team.
this too
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
Confidence?
Elaborate
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:26 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
a coach isn't going to take a job if he doesn't think he'll get a fair shake
there were rumblings after Fulmer was fired that coaches might be scared off by Tennessee’s obvious unrealistic expectations. I don’t think they were true then. If we axed Dooley right now, I think they would be true now.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 9:06 AM EST up reply actions
Every new coach is replacing a coach who got fired
It’s a prerequisite.
Did Nick Saban care whether his predecessor got a fair shake? Or was he glad the position was open?
It isn’t the former. A stud coach doesn’t worry about “fair shakes”. He kicks ass and takes names.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 10:41 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
maybe there are a handful of coaches who are so confident in their own abilities
that they don’t worry at all about the administration and their job security. But I imagine it’s a distinct minority
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Dooley
Interesting hire. Unproven guy w/losing record at La Tech, albeit with mitigating circumstances. Saban “disciple”.
Vols are 0-for-non-VU/UK-SEC opponents through 2 years. Issues regarding effort late in games & leadership have sprung up. Several poor finishes to games this year.
I’m just curious where people are saying “Dooley is a good coach” or “I think Dooley will get it done”. I hear it from a lot of folks, but I don’t hear why. Now, don’t get me wrong; I think the return of player(s) next year + schedule will help….but can someone tell me what they’re basing their belief(s) on that Dooley is a good coach and/or is the answer?
Swear I’m not trying to be a smart (Fulmerized). Promise. I just want some education as to this line of thought.
Basically, I’m looking for reasons to help me believe and have some kind of faith that Dooley is not in over his head. Thanks.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn’t matter. I’m amphibious." – Charles Shackleford
by Craig T on Nov 26, 2011 11:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions
My question that I share with others on this site is
how much of it is Dooley and the staff and how much is just the ridiculous amount of youth on the roster. LSU has 24 Seniors playing as an example. That matters a lot.
We’ll know more after next year, until then it’s just a debate.
See "youth" comment above
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:39 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think without the Cincinnati game, we'd be in a very dark place right now
by Will Shelton on Nov 26, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
Youth?
Our players appear to have been better 4 months ago, when they were 4 months younger.
Not buying the “youth” excuse.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:35 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
The above is meant to respond to a different post
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:36 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Cincy
If the Cincy game is all that keeps you on board with Dooley, then you’re grasping at straws.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:38 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
It's definitely not all that's keeping me on board
Just the most positive piece of on-field evidence. Without it, it would be much, much more blindly speculative – still couldn’t fairly make a summary judgment on him, but it would be an even more depressing reality
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 1:44 AM EST up reply actions
I know this is pedantic
but Ole Miss isn’t technically VU or UK.
What I like about Dooley is his press conferences, recruiting, and hiring of assistants that I also liked. And I think Justin Wilcox has shown signs of being a fantastic hire. Chaney. . . well, I’m no longer as convinced about him as I once was. But when you recruit well and hire top notch defensive coordinator, you are going to have some success. We’ll see if he makes new hires in a couple of the assistant spots that looked iffy this year.
Additionally, we have had flashes of being actually productive. A first half here, a drive there. But it’s all fits and starts and doesn’t last. Today was the first game we really should’ve won that we blew, and what I think it says is that Dooley has shown absolutely no ability to motivate this team. The way I see it, that’s really the only thing suggesting he may be in over his head, but I don’t think that’s solely on the head man. See how he handles his assistants and recruiting classes and see if the problem persists. Two years is still a quick judgment.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
I think he motivated the team to win last week.
but motivation outside of the confines of Neyland hasn’t been there all that visible.
He recruits with the best in the country, though. particularly impressive since he can’t go into his backyard and pick up * or really even all that many **** recruits.
motivation isn't a sometimes thing
if motivation is your strength and you can’t motivate teams when they’re playing against a crap UK squad or are way behind in the second half, then you’re really bad at your strength. I think it’s safe to say that it’s not Dooley’s strength
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
See my post below
You might be right, but I still think it’s too early to tell.
Motivation is as much a function/disfunction of youth as it is the head coach
People expect this roster to respond like a Junior/Senior heavy roster but they’re not. It’s like my 8 yo daughter who’s the size of an 11 yo when I get frustrated with her when she acts like an 8 yo. She’ll act like an 11 yo when she’s 11 regardless of what I do.
when I say "motivation is not a strength"
I mean that Dooley is not one of those guys who walks into a room and has everybody in the room wanting to run through a brick wall for him. That’s just not his style. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. You can get assistants, or you can recruit guys who are strong leaders. There are lots of ways to get the job done. But Dooley isn’t the kind of guy who does it all himself, I think
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
and has he been able to recruit guys who are strong leaders?
Yes. but nobody shows up as a strong leader, they take time.
I didn't say he wasn't going to
I said he might need to. I’m not sure what I’m saying that’s really controversial
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I'm reading you as sying
that there was no leadership, and he neither has assistants who provide any nor has brought in recruits who are developing into leaders. I think there are multiple people that can be picked out of that core group of sophomores/freshmen that can develop or are visibly developing into leaders.
yes, they can
but they haven’t yet. I was just saying that it’s not an area that Dooley just handles by himself, and he hasn’t had time to develop the players to do it.
Want to know the difference between the offense and defense? Look at Tauren Poole’s postgame quotes and Malik Jackson’s. Malik is a leader. He’s the only one.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
Poole is pointing fingers/blame placing and doesn’t carry the credibility that Malik does. Poole might have tried hard all year but he had way too many performance lapses for whatever reason. Even today he made some terrible choices on runs and was just too easy to bring down.
Malik was thanking people for the time he got at UT
Poole said that nobody wanted to play. I think that says what you need to know
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
oh, ok.
I took it as you blaming dooley instead of a statement about the players.
it's cool
I was just trying to find a way to put my point in which I both explained the problem and make clear that it doesn’t mean Dooley can’t fix it (just that he won’t be able to do it just standing up and giving speeches)
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
look to Bray and hunter
to really step it up as veteran leadership. Bray because he has to for the sake of the entire team, Hunter because, well, honestly I think he’d already considered a leader on the team if not for the injury.
they need a lot of growth
I think both of them have infectious attitudes, but they’re also young and cocky, and I’m not totally sure that they’re the guys right now who can bring a team back from behind. They need to learn to respond to adversity just as much as everybody else does
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
agree...my candidates for leadership breakouts
Lathers, Johnson, Maggit, Bohannon, Brewer, J Smith, Waggner, Bullard, Stone, James, Hunter, Rivera, Jackson, Lane
Don’t know if any of them will be or if someone else steps up, but I think that’s a reasonable candidate pool. These guys have ability, desire and they care a lot and invest themselves in getting better.
I guess the point I'm trying to make on this leadership/motivation thing
Is that more of the leadership and motivation will/should come from the players than the coaches. Coaches shape the roster, provide the structure and the teaching and some of the key game decisions, but the rest comes from the players. Take away the leadership and leave the talent of the ‘98 team and there’s no championship regardless of what the coaching staff does.
having Al Wilson on your team helps
I agree.
But there are also coaches who can step into situations without a lot of seniors who know how to win and make them believe they can win. James Franklin is probably that man, even though I still have doubts about him fielding a consistent offense. Dooley is not that man. But if Dooley recruits a Tee Martin or an Al Wilson or even a Nick Reveiz, he doesn’t have to be.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
James Franklin???
Vandy has a Senior heavy defense. Perhaps Franklin got those guys to step up but we don’t know how Franklin will motivate with a much younger roster. Plus his type of act can wear out quickly.
Perhaps Dooley has recruited those players but they haven’t ‘earned’ their right to lead and motivate yet. Al Wilson and Tee Martin didn’t do much leading before their Junior years.
That’s one of the variables that will be so interesting to watch next year that could have a huge impact…will there be leaders that this team has lacked for a couple of years now.
Wouldn't be the first coach...
to start off like gangbusters and slowly go south.
See Larry Coker, Terry Bowden, Tyrone Willingham, Rick Neuheisel, and Fulmer for that matter.
I think James Franklin is the kind of coach
who can take a bunch of guys who have never won before and convince them that they’re going to win. Vandy has seniors, but his seniors haven’t won anything.
That said, if you don’t eventually start winning the big games, the act will get tired.
Dooley is not that coach. But there are other types of coaches that succeed, and once some of his recruits earn the trust of their teammates, we’ll hopefully see development in this regard.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
that works for a season or so
Than it has to come from the players to have any sustained success.
I think we saw some of this from Bruce Pearl
he completely made it up out of thin air in season one, he developed Lofton and JuJuan for seasons two and three, nobody had it in season four and we were terrible (relative to talent level), he developed leaders in Wayne and JP in season five and we were good, and there was a leadership void last year when he bombed again.
my only point in this whole discussion is that Dooley is not the man who makes it up out of thin air in years one and two. Bruce Pearl was that man. I do think James Franklin is that man (note: this is not me coveting Franklin or comparing him to Pearl. I’m not convinced by him. But I do think he got those boys playing harder than Vandy usually plays this year).
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
When you watch good, strong teams
The one commonality and almost everyone has is a large core of upperclassmen in the two deep. These are the guys with the maturity and the credibility to lead, self motivate and motivate, nay demand, performance and accountability from their teammates. Show me the critical mass of these types of guys on this roster this year.
You give too much credit to the coaches
While they’re critical there’s only so much the best coaching staff in the country can do with a youthful roster that just has to learn by playing through mistakes and immaturity. There are no short cuts. The sad part is that if another staff came in they might show immediate improvement just from the players having grown up physically, emotionally and mentally, improvement that Dooley would have likely been a part of.
I’m saving my final judgement on Dooley until next year because he’s going to be here so no point in fussing about him until then. What possible good does it accomplish other than maybe venting frustration?
You're bending over backwards to apologize for a guy who sucks
Listen to yourself. It isn’t the coaches job to motivate? Really?
I’m done bending over backwards to apologize for some dude that sucks.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 10:57 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Wrong
I’m just not going to burn down the barn because the harvest didn’t turn out as good as desired.
All I’m saying is let this play out through next year. PERIOD. All the lynch mobs want to dismiss away all of the circumstances that conspired around this team this year and blame it all on Dooley. Some of those things are Dooley’s responsibility, some aren’t. I think my position is more balanced. I might be where you are next year or you might be eating crow, neither of us really know yet.
Yep, sorry, forgot about Miss last year
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn’t matter. I’m amphibious." – Charles Shackleford
by Craig T on Nov 26, 2011 11:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not really
Turner Gill sucks.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:43 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
okay, that one might be fair
but Dooley hasn’t crashed and burned nearly so spectacularly. I still think it’s too early here
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
We just lost to Kentucky
It’s relative
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 10:43 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Nick Saban lost to Louisiana-Monroe
One embarrassing loss is not turning the tide from “gets at least three years” to “fire away.”
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
His second year?
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 3:21 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
remember how Dooley kept saying this was year one?
he’s not BSing you. This is more comparable to year one than year two in a number of respects.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Last year was clean-up on isle 9 and 10 and 5 and well the whole damned store
But he should be winning like Fulmer in the 90’s in just the very next year after losing a bunch of productive Seniors.
He doesn’t even get a fraction of the grace that Johnny got not that he should get as much rope as Johnny did, but he should get a little.
He's apologizing for himself in advance
Nothing else. Nothing more.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Dec 2, 2011 5:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I thought Kiffin's loss to UCLA was unacceptable
and Fulmer certainly had several there at the end. It’s not that Dooley is the only coach we’ve ever used that word with in describing a defeat. The 26 years and the WR/QB thing doesn’t help the argument, of course.
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
That Memphis loss with that team was inexcusible
That was a far, far worse loss than Saturday
This quote from Poole says all you need to know about the problems a team will have with little Senior leadership
“The sense of urgency that he and UT’s 12 other seniors brought to Commonwealth Stadium on Saturday, Poole said, wasn’t shared by the rest of their teammates.”
If we had a roster with 20-25 Seniors with most in the 2 deep and/or special teams they could make a difference. 12 with only a few being significant contributors can’t do it. Just way too much immaturity. Not much coaches can do either. These kids just have to grow up.
Here's the problem with senior leadership:
next year’s seniors who have played meaningful snaps: Zach Rogers, Marsalis Teague, Dallas Thomas, Rod Wilks, Willie Bohannon, Prentiss Waggner, Ben Bartholomew, Mychal Rivera. Plus a handful of scout team players, which includes guys like Greg King and Nigel Mitchell-Thornton who haven’t played since Kiffin left. Plus maybe Herman Lathers if he doesn’t get a redshirt for some reason.
So next year, it better be “upperclassmen leadership” – Bray needs to lead. Somebody on defense has to lead. Not sure who it’s going to be.
by Will Shelton on Nov 26, 2011 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
this
So next year, it better be "upperclassmen leadership" – Bray needs to lead. Somebody on defense has to lead.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Will your comment about Cincy brought up a question...
I had heard a long time ago that only Michigan, Alabama, Ohio State, and Tennessee were the only programs to never lose 8 games in a season. Michigan and Alabama have done so in the last 11 years, I think.
Anyway, anybody know if this is true?
by GhostDance on Nov 26, 2011 11:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
we've never lost 8
same with ohio state.
Don’t want to be up until 5 in the morning going through all the other teams
“So we’ve got that going for us, which is nice.”
by GhostDance on Nov 26, 2011 11:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, we've lost 7 four times, but never 8.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
only four times?
and three in the last four years? Wow. that’s awful
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Five times, I forgot one...
Twice under Dooley, Twice under Fulmer, and Once under Majors
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
twice under Fulmer?
which two?
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I was wrong again... LOL
I was thought 2005 as well, but we went 5-6 not 5-7.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
The kids over at that sewer otherwise known as Volnation is in full meltdown
This site is such a nice refuge, particularly after tough losses.
Volnation's run by ESPN
what do you you expect?
I always laugh a little,
When I see the ESPN hates us threads on an ESPN affiliated site.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 26, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
"ESPN Affiliate"
means that it can say whatever it wants in order to get view counts up.
Not entirely correct
It became an ESPN affiliate well after the fact. Either way, I hate VN.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:24 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
And Adams out with the grade A trolling...
an article calling this team the third worst Tennessee team ever.
Honestly, some of the Wyatt teams, the McDonald team, and the Bill Britton teams were worse.
definitely not worse than 2008
probably better than last year’s team at times, but even more mentally fragile
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 26, 2011 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
Frustrating...
I’ve read all the SEC’s local papers, and no other school has a guy like Adams who just constantly trolls the fanbase.
It’s like having a Florida fan covering the Georgia beat for the Athens paper, he comes off as enjoying our screwups.
He's the worst
Cynical gets old after awhile, especially if that’s all you got.
Er...
Have you ever read Ron Morris’s column in The State? He does much the same thing to the Gamecocks.
But Adams is still pretty darn bad. At least with Morris it seems to be a personal beef with Spurrier which he’s expanded to the entire program. Adams…yeesh.
by BrotherFlounder on Nov 27, 2011 2:17 AM EST up reply actions
2005 and 2008 were disasters
because the rosters of those teams were actually quite good with a lot of upperclassmen. This team has talent but not enough to overcome the immaturity. When the maturity catches up to the talent with some additional recruits we’ll be much happier.
The 2008 team was the least fun team to watch in the history of UT sports
Jerry Green’s final basketball team still stands alone as the team I disliked the most.
by Will Shelton on Nov 26, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
The 2005 football team...
bugged me so much more. They blamed everyone but themselves for getting Coach Fulmer fired, but that had been cultivated with the “us against the world” style of motivation for a decade at that point.
Was ridiculous seeing so many players that were staying out drinking and smoking until 3am bitching about the UT fanbase.
I'm not sure we'll ever see something like that again, and man I hope not
Serious Final Four conversations in mid-January, coach fired in mid-March. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a coach and a fanbase turn on each other like that, definitely not so quickly. That one was the worst for me because you saw every bit of what they were capable of, and then you watched it go right down the toilet every single night.
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
hmmmm
serious Final Four conversations in mid-January December, coach fired in mid-March.
This seems so familiar for some reason. Saw every bit of what they were capable of, and then watched it go right down the toilet.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
Felt much different though
a lot of it last year was having something else to blame – still frustrating, but not in the same way.
Green’s team had a three game homestand with Kentucky, Florida, and a terrible Georgia team in February that was supposed to turn it all around. They gave up 93 points per game and went 0-3. The absolute worst, to me, is a talented team that plays no defense and doesn’t start playing hard until it’s too late. And that’s exactly what happened with that team.
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
I know, I know
I was giving you a little bit of a hard time. last year had extenuating circumstances and teams that didn’t look quite as ugly. But the general structure was the same. I was young enough that I didn’t watch a whole ton of Jerry Green, but my memories aren’t good. The strongest one is getting to stay up late to watch UT/UNC in the Sweet Sixteen.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
They returned everybody except C.J. Black, whose adult leadership they really missed
and beat Wisconsin, West Virginia, Memphis, Syracuse, and Iowa en route to the 16-1 start. Won four of those games by double digits including a total beatdown of Syracuse in the Carrier Dome.
Went to Rupp with the big head and lost by 10. Beat Mississippi State the next game to get to 17-2 (4-1), then lost at Georgia in double overtime. And then it just fell apart: lost seven of eight, got blown out by terrible teams, and ended the losing streak with that homestand. Like a bad dream you couldn’t wake up from, and the personalities involved just really made it so easy to turn on them. I was a student then, which made it even worse. I hope that’s as bad as it ever gets for any of my teams; the Braves’ collapse in baseball this year was similar, I just care about UT basketball more.
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
That year was much worse...
- in mid January, and had to win an SEC Tournament game just to get into the NCAA tournament.
SBN thinks they're smarter than you
and know what you really wanted the text to look like.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Agree...so frustrating to watch. The offense seemed to get worse as the season went on.
And you really couldn’t point to injuries as contributing to the problem.
Arian Foster was the only player who even cared by the end
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
Arian was always my favorite
except for during the Penn State game
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
/fumbles inside the ten
Seriously a great player, but had a knack for the most poorly timed fumbles. Not that any fumble is better or worse than another, but wow did he get some highlight reel fumbles.
(And I have total respect for him. Glad to see him have success.)
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
I think the poorly timed fumble thing was overdone
I can only remember one fumble lost in the 4th quarter in his Tennessee career. He just played for teams that up and quit after he fumbled, which he did an average amount
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
Not so much the late in the game deal
but that they always seemed to be near goal lines. Yes it’s overplayed, but that kind of thing has a way of magnifying in memory.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
that part may be true
inside the 10 against Carolina, inside the 20 against Penn State, inside the 10 against UCLA, inside our own 10 against Auburn (but that might’ve been a handoff issue), inside the 20 against Florida (but that might’ve been a handoff issue)
And then the team allows the other team to drive the whole friggin’ field.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
Was that Auburn game worse than today's Kentucky game?
Discuss.
…
and WEEP FOR YOUR SOUL!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
/copingmechanism
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
not a chance
it got a terrible coaching staff out of here. this one just made us depressed about a coaching staff that still hasn’t gotten a fair shake.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
Well, setting coaching discussion aside and just taking the games in their 60 minute merits.
I’d still agree, but they were both hideous.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
Fair Shake
You’re just drawing conclusions
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:53 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
It was less fun to watch
field position being the difference…we needed one first down in the fourth quarter of that game. One.
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
One first down and Fulmer might not have been fired.
It’s a small “might”, but still.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
I know
just one. in an entire quarter
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
This USC-UCLA game is just about perfect...
UCLA going to get humiliated going into the Pac12 title game. God I hope they win that somehow.
aren't they 6-6 now?
if they lose the Pac-12 championship game, will they be bowl eligible?
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
There is a clause that allows them to petition for a waiver if the PAC doesn't have enough bowl-eligible teams.
It’s not a guarantee in the clause, but they’ll get the waiver.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
next week, Clemson or VA Tech
if only UVA had won. I want the absolute worst teams imaginable to represent the Pac XII, Big X, ACC, and well, whoever wins the Big East will be a great representative of their conference.
FWIW
went over to the VolNation recruiting forum, where people aren’t usually freaking out over bad losses. One of the more respected posters over there says this doesn’t affect recruiting, because Dooley isn’t selling guys on winning a championship this year (or next year) but on filling holes in a young team and building themselves a championship club before they graduate. That pitch doesn’t change.
He also says he expects Hiestand to be gone (which, to add my own thoughts, is perfect timing, because we don’t have any OL recruits to lose) and for us to look hard for a RBs coach. He thinks Chaney could do good work with the OL.
Don’t know how solid that information is, but at the very least, it’s a reasonable-sounding opinion in a time of lots of unreason, so I thought it was worth sharing
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:19 AM EST reply actions
it was not clear
whether that meant Chaney would be demoted and we’d find another OC or whether it was reasonable to expect the OC to do both. and I personally don’t know
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
but the general feeling of:
1. Get rid of Hiestand
2. Bring in a RB coach
seems spot on to me
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
would chaney even stay...
After a demotion?
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 27, 2011 12:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
no way...
someone would pick him up pretty quickly, he has a great reputation despite recent results
that is about what I was thinking.
by VolfanatETSU on Nov 27, 2011 12:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
No.
And I don’t think there’s a need for a demotion. During practice, you’re either working with position coaches or scrimmaging, so he wouldn’t be asked to do two things at the same time. Usually, the OC works with a smaller unit like the qbs, but they do handle position work. There aren’t enough slots for coaches to do otherwise.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
Just had a "duh, you're an idiot" moment
of course it’s reasonable to expect the OC to also handle OL duties. It’s not like our offensive coordinator from 1989 to 1992 was also the OL coach or anything.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
Capital "IF" Hiestand is released,
I wonder if it’s more of a matter of him not relating well enough to get the line where it needs to be. Opinions of him vary widely, but there’s rarely a middle ground, which makes me wonder of it’s a case of great knowledge, spotty communication.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
same person, btw
says the undisputed leader of the team is Justin Hunter. Has the most talented, has the best work ethic, is looked up to by all. Bray and Rogers follow his lead
also says we’re still playing short-handed next year, which is, of course, true. But we’re all hoping the kind of short-handed where you don’t have a senior class is a lot different than the kind where you don’t have a junior or senior class.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
Sweet
“Dooley isn’t selling guys on winning a championship this year (or next year) but on filling holes in a young team and building themselves a championship club before they graduate. That pitch doesn’t change.”
Glad some random dude on VN can speak intelligently on the thoughts and feelings of 20 or so 17-18 year olds he hasn’t met.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 2:01 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Bitter?
Not at all. I’m done apologizing for Derek Dooley. You should look into it.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 10:51 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
And, seriously
Responding to somebody who disagrees with you by calling them “bitter” is getting a little bit closer to the “getting personal” line than I personally like to go. So how about you rein that in and try to respond to the points that I’m saying.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 28, 2011 3:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
There's no requirement to apologize for Dooley
However losing perspective and laying all blame at the feet of a coach is a bit extreme in the other direction. Somewhere in the middle there’s a reasonable perspective that lays some responsibility on the staff, some on the players and some on the circumstances that lead up to this season and the roster issues and the circumstances of this season that included losses to our best players and a brutal, brutal schedule.
wasn't that a description of Dooley's pitch, not of recruits' reactions?
although if recruits buy that pitch, then it says something about their reactions
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
/eyes burning
//survival mechanism of the brain
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
They're taking things far harder than we are.
Which sets up the two lovely conditions of “we’re not the only ones providing ample schadenfreude to others”, and “we’re not the epic butthurt of the internet”.
Small favors, that.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
Isn't it worse to be a Florida fan right now?
What’s their excuse?
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
I'm just kidding...
but I wanted to smack the UT fans who thought he’d be a guaranteed winner at Tennessee, same as the fans who think NFL coach = MNC in 2 years.
Chest bumping =/= wins, and coordinating is a COMPLETELY different skillset from head coaching. It’s like comparing middle management to a personnel director at a big company.
yes.
Dooley may turn out to not be the answer, but we know that Muschamp would not have been.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
We could have done worse than Dooley.
TN could have overpaid for Muschamp!
by Orange James 7 on Nov 27, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
Who sucks and beat Dooley
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 10:53 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
in the Swamp
the game that Hunter got injured, and Muschamp had everybody healthy. Like it or not, but the Florida team that played that game was better than the UT team that played that game.
Did Muschamp beat Dooley?
I could have sworn I saw a bunch of players on the field and the ones in blue and orange looked a bit faster than the ones in orange and white and the front seven in blue and orange are as good as any front seven in the country going against a mostly Sophomore line and a sub par group of RBs.
Perhaps Dooley should have suited up and played himself?
What I saw was a team that took a massive hit by losing Hunter and fighting back once they regained their composure. I was disappointed with the outcome but proud of the effort in a very tough situation.
I saw
A really really bad offense scoring on us pretty easily.
Florida is bad. When your bending over backwards involves ignoring this fact, perhaps one should consider whether they still sound reasonable.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 1:22 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I saw a really bad offense take advantage of two freshman linebackers for 10 plays or so
and fail to move the ball consistently for the rest of the game
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
tap dancing christ, phil g
Please pretty please point to which sentence you believe to be unreasonable. Enlighten me on which part of it you disagree with. I wanna hear the apparently self-proclaimed “reasonable police” (aka phil g) tell me what I’m charged with. Have at it.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 28, 2011 2:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I would think so.
Danged bowl game they get to go to, though. That’s what really hurts.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
I just looked at their box score from today
Yikes
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
Outstanding point about 2013.
Tennessee will have to put a lot of focus into the development of other options. If they rely almost totally on Bray, hunter, Rivera and Rodgers for their success in 2012 they could be creating a tsunami that will hit in 2013. All teams have a few guys who do most of the work but with no rushing game TN will live and die with the success of the guys you mentioned. If they get their 8 or 9 wins next year, the chances of matching that or surpassing it in 2013 will rest firmly on the shoulders of the defense and a run game. TN should focus most of their recruiting efforts on the defensive side of the ball imo as relying on good defense is much more sustainable than relying on offense.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, people seem to be worried about the drop off from next year to 2013
That’s one thing Im not worried about, because so far (with admittedly limited data) the arc of recruting under Dooley is trending up.
By the way, isn't there a clause that allows bowls to dip into 5-7 teams if there aren't enough 6-6 teams?
That would mean something like the SeeingEyeGophers.Rus Bowl.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
yeah...
there is, but it pretty much requires too few teams counting literally everyone not just the conference.
That's what I meant
and I have no idea if that’s an issue this year. But it seems like a lot of conferences are running short.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
Ah.
I’m actually glad. I didn’t want to deal with “Tennessee backed in at 5-7”. Lose to Kentucky should equal no bowl game.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
same here
and we can still stay one of the only two programs to never lose eight games
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
And there it is.
See the point about UCLA’s defense below.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
UCLA
Their defense:
If we just let them score, we can go back to the sideline and hide.
Their offense:
If we just get to 4th down, we can go back to the sideline and hide.
Kiffin would love that too.
And I bet he drops mention of them being South champs in postgame.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
the monopoly is over....there.
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 2:06 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Wish some teams would start doing the home/home uniform thing...
if SOMEONE would do it, I bet it would take off rather quickly.
agree
we saw it in basketball in Maui (UT/Memphis). why don’t we see it in football?
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
I'm also surprised we didn't get UT/Bama to do it once we hired Dooley.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
same here
even more so when we got Hart
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe next year.
Especially if we can get a modest request chain going.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
Saban...
could veto the existence of the Alabama Computer Science school if he wanted to. From what I understand he is dead set against letting anyone else wear their home uniforms in Tuscaloosa.
he let LSU do it just fine
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
Must resist jokes about Alabama Computer Science.
They do have Hunstville, at least.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
I took two classes at UAH
Co-op’d
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 2:08 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I kinda feel like everybody's afraid to let another team wear home colors and risk them winning.
But that’s totally silly. If they win, it really doesn’t matter what colors they wear.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
yeah...
but of course you have to calculate in the “fans are really stupid” factor. We’d have a healthy portion of folks blaming any loss on letting the other team wear home uniforms.
It's always odd to see a defense celebrate a tackle after a 9 yard gain on 1st and 10.
And to hear the announcers praise it.
USC has seriously benefitted by the 12-team conference alignment.
They’re in a division of weakness and get to steamroll while they’re on suspension.
yeah...
Oregon, Washington, Oregon State, Cal and Stanford have all been better than every South team other than possibly Arizona State over the last 5 years.
Kinda like the ACC Atlantic
Or at least what it was supposed to be for Florida State and has instead turned into for Clemson.
by BrotherFlounder on Nov 27, 2011 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
Discovered something mildly amusing...
1-7 Apprentice School out of Newport News, Va is in first place in their D3 conference… because they are the only team left in it.
Oh, he won't say anything.
But BN will.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
Do have to credit Kiffin with one thing...
he does go out of his way to get the Rudys on the team involved
BN postgame post watch is on.
SHould be up veeeerry soon. They’ve been working on it since September, after all.
Aaaaaaaand it's up.
Reliable, that bunch.
by David Hooper on Nov 27, 2011 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
So here's the thing.
Reports are that Tyler Bray was sick, and I think we can all agree that his play on the field reflected that. Just as there were games earlier in the year when he was gone that we would have had a chance at winning with him, I have zero doubt that with a healthy Tyler, we mop the floor with Kentucky. And then we’re not even having this discussion. So basically, people want to clean house and fire Dooley because Tyler Bray caught the flu. Jesus wept.
by danmarcel on Nov 27, 2011 1:44 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
did any offensive player other than Rajion show up?
I keep asking, but I don’t think anybody’s come up with another name
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
Then he continues to be the unluckiest coach in the world...
And his seat is warm because he refuses to stop wearing the tiki doll necklace he found on the Dooley family Hawaiian vacation.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
by birdjam on Nov 27, 2011 8:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Tyler Bray with the flu and a hurt thumb should be > than random WR playing QB for a division 2 level kentucky team every time and it shouldnt be close.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
If only it was just QB vs. QB
But a bunch of other guys get to play as well and have a hand in the outcome of the game.
And here's the real tragedy.
If Tennessee had won, I’d be tied for first in the pick pool rather than sitting at 34th. ;)
Tennessee Rocky Bottom
Unfortunately, some of you have come to your senses. I say unfortunately because it shouldn’t be this way. I said several weeks ago that didn’t like what I was seeing from Dooley. TN should not lose to any team, not LSU and AL or an NFL team, and not look competitive for 60 minutes. When we lost to FL and GA (definitely should have beat FL in retrospect), then were run off the field by AL and LSU, I knew something was wrong. Losing to KY and an overtime win at home v.s Vandy are the same thing as getting killed in other games. We weren’t competitive. My opinion is that TN has the players to be at least competitive, no matter the opponent. If they are not competitive, then the coaches shoulder the blame.
The author of this post says, “Given the situation he inherited, anybody that tells you they can fairly and intelligently say they know for certain Derek Dooley isn’t the man for this job is either overreacting or trying to get more readers/listeners. You can’t know yet. None of us can. We don’t have enough information. It’s not fair to put it on him.” True statement. But I will say that it is my opinion based on what I have seen this year, Dooley is not the man for the job. I hope I’m wrong, and I hope next year is a complete turnaround, but in my gut I can’t see it.
Also, it is fair to put it on him. He makes a lot of money, and he holds a very public position in TN, so he must be accountable. In fact, he said something after the game that I found peculiar. Dooley said, "I do believe at some point we were going to hit a place that wasn’t good. We were kind of headed in this direction all along, and we just couldn’t fight our way out of it. …" Its your job to fight your way out of it. That you didn’t means you failed.
So no bowl game this year, which is fair. Bowl games are supposed to be a reward for a team that has had a good year, and other than a win v.s Cincy, can anyone say this was a good year for TN?
by Orange James 7 on Nov 27, 2011 10:22 AM EST reply actions
I disagree completely
Your expectations are ridiculous.
First off, FL only looked bad once they lost Brantley and Rainey and Demps. Before that, they were a far, far better team filled with fast, strong, athletic guys. If Florida recruited exclusively within a 60 mile radius of Gainesville, they could find enough talent to win every conference other than the SEC. Versus UT, which loses all-world caliber Justin Hunter on the 3rd play of the game (who is, in case you forget, about 50% of the offense), do you really expect UT to win? And before you say that “someone has to step up”, nobody on the team this year could step up and fill the void of Justin Hunter besides maybe Da’Rick, who would’ve left just as big a void had he even attempted to fill Hunter’s void.
Georgia is playing for the SEC championship this year, and is filled with talented juniors and seniors. They didn’t lose over the span of two years almost the entire team. Yes, Georgia had a very, very slow start to the season. But make no mistake, they are very, very good.
LSU and Alabama ran every team off the field. Arkansas got their ass kicked almost as badly as we did by both teams. Are they a bad team? no, in fact I’d buy arguments that Arkansas is the 3rd best team in the country. Same with Auburn. If you can’t look at LSU and Alabama and see that they should kick UT’s ass at football, you’re blind.
Having the players to be competitive with the best? When they’re fresh, maybe, possibly our starters can put up a good fight. But when they get tired, there’s nothing behind them to let them sit a series out. You know what all those teams you magically think UT is just as good at right now have? A two-deep or three-deep that would be starters on most teams out there. UT isn’t there yet, and it’s expecting them to be like that (among other reasons) that got UT into this mess in the first place. And blaming Dooley, which is only 1 step away from saying he needs to be fired right now, doesn’t do anything.
UF had 0 points in the swamp last night
until a garbage time fumble late in the 4th gifted them 7 in their 21-7 loss. That was with Brantley, Demps, and Rainey. They also looked bad last year with the same guys under Urban Meyer. Also I think it is more than fair to say that Lattimore is every bit as valuable to South Carolina as Hunter is to TN and they managed to get the W in Neyland. UGA is just good, not very very good. Auburn is not a very good football team and everybody knew that coming into the year. Alabama, LSU, and Arkansas are all very good teams that were going to beat UT this year regardless of UT’s injuries. Lack of depth and talent are problems for UT as you mentioned, but ………UT routinely came out of the locker room after half, completely fresh and played flat as a pancake WAY too early in the 3rd to talk about a depth or fatigue issue there. With all this said, I agree that firing Dooley would be a huge mistake. He needs to get more talent in here although he had talent enough on this team to be able to coach UT to wins over a horrible offensive team in USC, a better showing than an OT W at home vs Vandy and a debacle in Kentucky.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
UGA is one of the 10 best teams in the country
I don’t buy the idea that UF in late november is as good as UF in mid-september this year. I just dont’ buy it.
And Lattimore is not as valuable to South Carolina as Hunter is to UT. Lattimore comes out, there’s somebody behind him that can be serviceable. Nobody on UT has the talent to be a replacement to Hunter.
Lattimore was statistically over 30% of South Carolina's offense.
That’s not my opinion. There are multiple WR’s/TE’s on any football team who should have the ability to get open. TN is lucky enough to have 2 extra in Rogers and Rivera that are NFL caliber. Most teams are lucky to have 1 NFL level option to catch balls much less 3. I’ll agree to disagree that UGA is one of the top 10 football teams in the country. They were less than a 2 pt favorite vs TN and that isnt because vegas thinks TN is around the 11th or 12th best team.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
not sure the numbers bear that out
in 4 games against non-Kentucky BCS opposition before losing Lattimore, South Carolina scored more than two offensive touchdowns once and averaged 23.25 points.
in 4 games against non-Kentucky BCS opposition after losing Lattimore, South Carolina scored more than two offensive touchdowns twice and averaged 23.25 points.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Points and yards are 2 different things.
I actually heard the commentators say that one night. I havent researched, but it made sense to me when I thought of what % of USC’s total yardage is Lattimore’s when he plays. Maybe thats where the number came from. Surely he accounts for around 30% of their total yardage on average. If not he sure fakes it pretty well.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure he did account for a large percentage of their yardage
but now that he’s gone, their other running backs are getting the job done as well. Is their total offense suffering significantly since he left? Because their scoring offense sure isn’t.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
Your fantasy expections will rarely be met which will just make you miserable
Without Hunter Florida was just better than us at that time, perhaps not now, but we didn’t play them now.
No one here is arguing that this was a good year for TN, I don’t get your point.
We have talent on this roster but they don’t have enough experience and maturity yet. You can’t totally coach around that it has to come with time, practice and game experience which they got in bucket loads this year.
The point Dooley was making and I agree with him, is that the youngsters that we’re relying on all over the roster hit the wall this year. Why that is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. They’re not physically fully developed yet and they played some of the most physical teams in the country week after week. There might even be some benefit of skipping this bowl season and focusing on healing and developing their strength and conditioning this off season.
Look, I’ve said this a dozen times, but I’ll say it again. Dooley is our coach next year regardless how much anyone or everyone yells and stomps their feet and declares what a failure he is and always will be. As this post’s headline says and I agree with, next near is THE year for Dooley. He and this team might take a giant step next year or they may not, but no one can say with certainty right now how it will work out. I suggest people take a step back from the ledge and just let this play out. We have an extremely important recruiting season coming up with a lot of potential early entries. There’s plenty of positives to point to, try focusing on those and let the other factors that are out of any of our control take care of themselves.
It definitely wasn't a good year
and wouldn’t have been one even with a win over UK and a Music City Bowl win. I think it would’ve been an acceptable year given the injuries; South Carolina felt like the only game that should’ve gone the other way had we been healthy, and they weren’t healthy either.
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Done: DRAW A LINE!
Memphis just fired their second year coach—Memphis! There is nothing written that a bad situation must fully fester for 3 or 4 years. Fire Dooley now!
Firing Dooley would send a clear message: excuse ridden, unmotivated losses to vastly inferior Kentucky teams are unacceptible for Tennessee football, as well as sending the message that Tennessee will do whatever it takes to return to the upper eschelon of the SEC. Hiring an A-tier coach would also send a strong message about UT’s commitment to winning. Dooley was a desparate hire, not a top-tier hire.
Firing assistants, the soldiers of recruiting, isn’t going to make things better for adding quality depth for year 3 or 4. Plus, the word from competitors to recruits will be that Dooley is a short-timer with musical chairs assistants.
Dooley was the stop-gap hire resulting from Kiffin’s late departure (i.e. the best in a bad situation, not the best hire in better circumstances). He’ll receive a lucrative severance package and move on his with life in a significantly better financial position than before he came to UT. Tennessee will be able to hire top SEC caliber coach and should do so post haste. Draw the line! Memphis did!
you're absolutely right
when you say firing Dooley would send a clear message. the message would be that the team must win right now, and if there are any devastating injuries, it doesn’t matter, you’re still expected to win now.
Say nothing about roster being depleted, nothing about a team in need of a few years of stability. it’s all about winning right now, to hell with trying to build a team that’s going to be good for years to come, not just today.
three coaches in four years is the kind of attrition that this program can't handle
Memphis wasn’t building a base of depth, so it didn’t matter. We are. there’s a reason Alabama kept Mike Shula for a third year after he went 10-12 in his first two. And if they hadn’t, there’s no way they would’ve been 12-0 in Saban’s second year
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Just because EVERYONE here is a sunshine pumper...
… ok, I can’t finish that sentence without laughing
I'd say most people hear are more realistic and rational
When you have the consecutive recruiting failures we’ve had 2007-2009 coupled with 3 head coaches and multiple assistant coaching and strength coaching changes and the core of your roster are Freshman and Sophomores well years like 2011 are going to happen especially when those issues are coupled with key injuries and one of the toughest schedules in college football.
Honestly I don’t know how much the struggles of 2011 are related to the above factors or to coaching and neither does anyone else which is why next year will provide a lot more clarifying information. Dooley will be here next year so jumping up and down screaming at Dooley is not particularly productive.
Re your absolutely right
I see nothing about this coach that indicates that next year will be significantly better
well, let's see
success with Hunter/Bray healthy. Roster that’s very young, but great recruiting. Oh yeah, one of the hardest schedules in the country this year that pretty much by definition has to be easier? Ok, so a loss to a bad Kentucky, on the road, in their bowl game, with an offense that was impossible to predict prior to the game. So what?
You shouldnt have to be able to predict
a WR playing QB to win that game. lol
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
“Ok, so a loss to a bad Kentucky, on the road, in their bowl game, with an offense that was impossible to predict prior to the game. So what?”
falconnuke | Posted 2 hours ago
Dude, stop. “their bowl game” … “impossible to predict” … are you listening to yourself?
No homer.
by kidbourbon on Nov 27, 2011 3:27 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
yes I can hear myself
And that Kentucky team was motivated to spoil UT’s season. 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt motivated.
Impossible to predict, anyone who says that Kentucky coming out and using wildcat the entire game (which only worked for what, a drive and a half?) is full of bull.
actually...
I did call it, you can look for my posts but most of the folks who actually attend Kentucky’s practices predicted Matt Roark would get the start by ~Thursday.
Only thing he could run would be the Wildcat, so we really should have done a little work against it.
agree
it was leaked way in advance
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 27, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Can UT afford to wait?!
Another season of more excuses than wins? Bone-headed play calling? Panicked moves that blow long-term player eligibility with zero short-term results?
Derek Dooley: a nattier attired Charlie Weis!
yes UT can afford to wait
because it’s better to wait one more year for the chance to put together a dynasty than to make a panicked move and end up wallowing in mediocrity for 5 or more more years.
"Dynasty"??
With Dooley??
Coaching matters. Good coaches have teams that improve. When Saban went to Bama or Strong to Louisville—to name but two examples— they inherited bad teams and then improved play each year thereafter. This year’s Vols team is worse than last year’s team, not just record wise (albeit one less win) but worse attitude and worse execution. And last year’s team was arguably worse than Kiffin’s team. Dooley has not made an appreciable difference in the caliber of play! That is why Tenn should draw the line now. Dooley was not the hire that UT would have made if Kiffin had quit immediately after the bowl game. As there is no sign of improvement, Tennessee should make the type of hire worthy of an SEC contender. But Hey! If you want to build a dynasty of the SEC rump, give Dooley another 24 months. And, the attitude expressed by “Unbelievable”, the Ky poster, is just the sort of Stockholm Syndrome attitude you look forward to with Dooley.
yes Dynasty
with Dooley.
This team was better than last year’s team, and you don’t see it. This team also had twice the injury issues as last year’s team, and the best defensive player by far on last year’s team was kicked off before the season started this year.
And no, Tennessee should not “draw the line” now. Doing that would be an absolute disaster. But if you want to get rid of him, fine. Answer me one thing. If Dooley is fired (an action I do not support) who should be the next coach? Name one person you’d day UT should really go out and get, and you think they’d come to UT after firing Dooley
Kiffin's team underachieved
that team had WAY more talent than seven wins
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
Unbelieveable!
As you can see by my avatar, I’m from Kentucky. I’m not particularly a football fan. I have watched a few games from time to time. I have just read all your crying and bitching about yesterdays loss to my Cats. If you could look in the mirror and say “How could a team (any team) beat another team 26 timea straight” Now this team finally does and you act like it was the end of time. Guys, It’s only a game! Good Day!
It's just hard
when you lose to a team that sucks so epically as Kentucky does this year. I mean they’re just terrible.
division II caliber....literally
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
gfy...
Seriously, for a guy named oldcat you sure do act like a little kid a lot. Sitting there telling everyone “it’s just a game” when you reliably come over here and try and taunt us every time Kentucky beats us at anything or when you deem it safe to start the taunting before the game. You saying something is just a game is bordering on Harvey Updike telling some Auburn fans to quit getting so upset over football.
For those who don’t remember, this was the a$$clown who tried to make fun of us for not having anyone on after 4am posting about a basketball game. Yes, that is amusing from a fan whose team had zero discussions of their upcoming football game until the day before… one who even taking the entire week into account had approximately 3x the coverage for a basketball game vs. Radford.
by Caban on Nov 27, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He has to be an older guy.
There arent any young people who follow Kentucky football. That’s an age 40+ club.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Nov 27, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
If I was to suggest that basketball was just a game to group of UK fans after one of the worst losses of the last two decades
I suspect the reaction would be similar.
by Will Shelton on Nov 27, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Well, not quite.
I’m fairly certain broken glass would be involved in the basketball example.
by BrotherFlounder on Nov 27, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
I'll go ahead and say...
in terms of pure WTFness, this is probably our worst loss since the 1958 loss to Chattanooga. I know the spread wasn’t that big, but Kentucky with Roark is significantly worse than the 1996 Memphis team and even the North Texas team that beat us at the end of the Bill Battle regime.
Disagree, the 1996 loss to Memphis with Manning at QB was the biggest head scratcher for me
Since I’ve been following Vol football
but this Tennessee team was way, way, way worse than Manning's '96 team
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 28, 2011 7:33 AM EST up reply actions
which in my mind makes the '96 loss so much worse
This year’s addition for a variety of reasons already fully discussed ended up being a bad team where any loss shouldn’t be really that shocking. While the UK loss pissed me off it no way bothered me the way that loss to Memphis did. That was a WTF feeling for a long time. I remember thinking that Fulmer looked lost in that game…perhaps a preview of what was to come after 2001.
agree
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 28, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
ut football 2011)
We should all remember that sabotage by other SEC schools is a possible. I don’t understand UT fans tweeting bad messages to our players. If you were an all americn football star you may have the right, If not you have no right to criticize any player on our team, They sweated and knocked their butts off all year so some pencil neck idiot could criticize them. If you are really Ut fans then shut your ignorant mouths. We have the beginnings of a team. If we do not progress in 2012 then I will say no more. All you young fans don’t realize how long it took Johnny Majors to get Tn. back to the past, My last word is , I dare you to line up against even our kickers across the line of scrimmage and take them on. If you ain;t done it then you have no idea what you are talking about. If you are a UT fan stop harassing our players. If you are from Al. then go ahead.
I agree with this guy. 100%. I’m 20. I live in Alabama. It hurts not being able to run my mouth, but I know what it takes to build a program back. Look what Alabama went through to get theirs back. Almost identical to what we are. Give these guys a little bit of time. UT will be back where it belongs. The RockyTOP.
Rocky Top Will Always Be Home Sweet Home To Me!
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