Charleston 71 Tennessee 65 - More Of The Same
by Will Shelton on Dec 14, 2011 11:20 PM EST
in Tennessee Volunteer Basketball
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PrintAnother close loss for Tennessee against an opponent that was certainly better than Austin Peay and playing at home, but that's not making any of us feel better right now. We continue to adjust our expectations of this basketball team on the fly, but we also continue to see many of the same problems emerge in Tennessee's losses, especially to mid-major teams:
- The defense isn't good enough. Charleston was atrocious shooting the ball in the first half and the Vols built a lead of as many as thirteen before the Cougars whittled it down to four at halftime. But in the second half, Charleston scored at will, finishing at 49.0% for the game. Austin Peay shot 59.1%. Oakland shot 43.5%. There were a couple of interesting quotes attributed to Cuonzo Martin during the broadcast tonight - that his freshmen were his hardest workers, and that his team would be different by February - but right now, for a team who were would told would be about defense first, it's severely lacking against mid-major opponents.
- The inside game disappeared in the second half. This, to me, was the primary culprit against Austin Peay: Jeronne Maymon and Kenny Hall dominated in the first half, but the Governors went zone and Tennessee never went back to them. Tonight, Dwight Miller was a revelation in the first half with 13 points. He didn't even attempt a shot in the second half. Jeronne Maymon scored his ninth point with 14:05 to play. And for the second game in a row, he didn't attempt a shot in the final fourteen minutes. Explain this to me, please.
- We probably take too many threes. There wasn't much ground to stand on before tonight, because the Vols were shooting so well from the arc. And thanks to a late flurry from Jordan McRae tonight, UT goes in the books at 31.0% against Charleston - not terrible. But when you attempt 29 of them at the expense of your inside game, you allow runs like the one we saw tonight: in love with the three ball to snap you out of it that never falls, leading to easier opportunities for Charleston on the other end. Tennessee is not a bad three point shooting team. But Tennessee would be a better team if they didn't forget about their best player for the last fourteen minutes of a game. Whether that's Cuonzo's fault or the team is just selfish and panics or both, it has to be fixed or this will keep happening.
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ugh
Golden was terrible tonight. I like the set he had in there with Tatum at the point.
by joh2004 on Dec 14, 2011 11:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions
That was when we were really productive in the first half too
strange we didn’t go back to it, at least that I noticed.
by Will Shelton on Dec 14, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
Explanation of #2:
we have no point guard play. At all. Those first two games were the biggest tease, and if Golden had been able to sustain half that level, we’d still be talking tournament. Now we’re hoping and praying for NIT and Tatum is running the point.
As I said in the in game thread, I think I’m more encouraged by the fast starts than I am discouraged by the tire fire in the middle of the game. But I also think that means I’ve basically mailed it in on this season.
And even though our record was better and we ended up a tournament team. . . at least it’s not last year. I’m not sure if the play last December was worse, but it was at least as bad with a much more talented team. That was soul-sucking. This is. . . Derek Dooley’s 2010 part deux.
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
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by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 14, 2011 11:25 PM EST reply actions
This hurt me a lot more...
just because we’re one stupid BBQ, one photo, or one pissed off dad away from being a contender… and instead we’re flat out bad. Basketball gave us something to look forward to when football season turned to crap, now our basketball team is beginning to make our football team look exciting.
I said no tournament math. I lied.
Even if the Vols do what’s expected – win the next four, lose to Memphis and UConn – they’d be 7-8 non-conference and need to go 9-7 in the SEC to make the NIT.
one other thing
not really a message to people here, but to folks saying dumb things on twitter and the like
can we PLEASE stop talking about how we’re rehiring Pearl in three years? First of all, he’s 100% responsible for the current (terrible) state of the roster. Second of all, it’s basically begging for Cuonzo Martin to fail. Do we actually want Cuonzo Martin to fail? If yes, please stop watching UT basketball. If no, shut it.
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 14, 2011 11:59 PM EST reply actions
We're not rehiring Pearl...
but it’s going to be very frustrating 5 years down the road when he’s leading someone else’s team into the NCAA tournament… particularly if we’re on coach #2 or #3 at that point. I do hope for Cuonzo’s success but haven’t seen anything special yet. And with Kentucky’s stranglehold on talent the guy could do really well and still have zero banners to show for it.
We’re just as mentally weak as we were last season, but now we’re beating out St. Johns and UCF for recruits instead of Memphis and Kentucky. Signing a 5 star player is a big deal at any time, but there was a time where we were in the running for 3 or 4 every season instead of freaking out that we might have one looking at us.
I was about to look about you weird about these five stars we were getting under Pearl
and then I looked it up, and you were right. We got four during Pearl’s tenure: Tobias Harris, Scotty Hopson, Duke Crews, and Ramar Smith.
Also, looking back at old basketball recruiting classes may not be quite as depressing as looking back at football recruiting classes, but. . . yeesh. I guess they can’t count as total busts, and maybe it’s just that our expectations were too high. But we had seven 4/5 stars between 2006 and 2009, and I think only one lived up to our hopes (Chism). None made it to the NBA. The rest were a pair of starters who disappeared at key moments (Tatum, Hopson), a foul-magnet who only starts because there is no one else (Hall), a fringe rotation player (Woolridge), and two kicked out of school (Crews, Smith).
In general, I just think it’s too early to panic with Cuonzo. His recruiting has been a little worrisome so far, but he’s also been here for less than a year, and he can’t work off established relationships from his previous spot because we’re generally not recruiting the same guys. As far as the play. . . is it coaching or is it the guys? I see spurts of a whole lot of potential when the team plays the system, and then I see spurts of them ignoring it entirely. If this is still happening in three years, it’s on the coach. But right now, I’m inclined to ask “what do you expect with this bunch we’re trotting out there?”
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
The problem I have...
is that the bunch we’re trotting out there aren’t any less talented than most of the teams in the SEC, but so far we’re on par for a 10-12 win season if things go well.
no, the problem isn't necessarily talent
but the talent level is as low as it’s been in several years, and the decision-making is really, really terrible. This is nothing new, our decision-making has been terrible since we lost Lofton and JuJuan, with the exception of a half year where Weezy and Maze really stepped up. But the same bad decisions with less talent means we lose a whole lot of games.
The question is: how fast should we expect Cuonzo Martin to get those kids being patient and making good decisions?
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
This is a very subjective comparison to make
To say one roster is as talented as another can only be actualized by their play, it doesn’t matter what their perceived talent level is. If they aren’t playing nearly as well then I don’t think they are as talented. Coaching can close some of the gap, but at the end of the day the players have to make plays and our’s are not. Same with the football team when some argued that ‘on paper’ we were as good as or better than Georgia or South Carolina. Next year or in two years a lot of our youngsters might be much better but you can’t apply future potential to the current game being played. Our roster this year was simply not as talented as Georgia’s or South Carolina’s. The only team we were better than and lost to at the time we played them was Kentucky.
I might say "ambiguous" more than "subjective"
are they talented in that they can run fast, jump high, and do clever things with a basketball? Yes. Can they read defenses, handle pressure, and figure out at which point in the game they need to do which of those things? Absolutely not. The former is what we usually call “talent” but a talented but dumb team isn’t particularly useful, and a coach can’t just flip a switch and turn a dumb team into a smart one.
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
That's the challenge with making claims of talent
I wouldn’t consider a physically gifted but dumb team to be talented just like I wouldn’t consider a smart, well coached team talented if they were all 5’10 and slow with no vertical. As an example, although he’s tall and athletic, Woolridge is not talented in terms of playing basketball.
yeah, Woolridge is not talented in terms of playing basketball
but Trae Golden is. The problem is that Trae Golden either can’t or won’t do what Coach Martin wants him to do (in the case of defense, I think won’t is appropriate. In the case of being a point guard, perhaps can’t. We’ve been hearing since he signed that he was a 2-guard at heart and switching him to the point was a project of Coach Pearl’s)
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Really don't think...
most of the SEC teams have 4 guys with as much potential as Tatum, Golden, Maymon and McRae.
We’re not “untalented”… we certainly don’t have a Scotty Hopson or Tobias Harris this year, but neither does nearly every other team in the country. To say that we are less talented than teams like Auburn, LSU and South Carolina sort of reeks of an attempt to justify problems more so than a reasoned point.
the real question in my mind
is what should we reasonably expect CCM to get out of these guys. If we’re expecting him to turn Tatum into a team leader, we’re holding him to higher standards than we held Pearl
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
He'll get all of them back except Tatum and Swipa next year
so long-term, you’d want to see real improvement then.
by Will Shelton on Dec 15, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
agree
and please please please find some better talent to pair with them (Stokes, come to Tennessee. please).
I was more referring to this year, since there’s a vocal group (not necessarily at RTT) that are already calling Cuonzo the next Buzz and are using these results as proof. That’s when we need to slow down and ask just what we should be expecting out of him, if he’s to be a good coach
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
oh god no...
Tatum is the most overblown player we’ve had since Vincent Yarbrough at a minimum. I was sick of hearing “he’s going to be better than Lofton 4 years ago”, but he does have some decent talent if he’d ever figure it out.
Definitely not any sort of leader.
Tatum can straight take over a game
for 5-10 minutes. And then disappear into the woodwork. So yeah, I agree that he has talent. I just don’t know what we should take from that. We’ve already had a really good coach get a fat lot of nothing out of the talented guys we have on the floor right now. So what can we expect our new coach (hopefully also really good, but far less proven) to do?
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW
The roster would look quite a bit better right now if Pearl was at the helm, including definitely a Tobias Harris down there and probably a Scotty Hopson on the wing. A lineup of Golden – McRae – Hopson – Harris – Maymon wouldn’t be that horrible, would it?
______________________________________________
Boom. Here comes the Boom. Braydy or not. Here comes the boy from the West.
by bobothevol on Dec 15, 2011 6:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if we would've held on to Hopson and Harris, yeah, it'd be better
but I honestly think staying another year would’ve been a bad decision for Tobias Harris. There were a handful of lottery picks who stayed in college because of the uncertainty surrounding this season, and it allowed him to go from late first round to just inside the lottery.
But we were calling from as early as last December (when we thought Pearl would still be here) that the 2011-12 team would be the worst team of his tenure, because something had just gone wrong in the recruiting plan—things weren’t spaced out right
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Tobias was planning on sticking around...
but his parents, specifically his dad, entrusted him to CBP and nobody else(hell if I know why)… and it was all but a done decision the second Bruce was fired.
Still not sure it was that great an idea to leave… the NBA was thisclose to not having a season at all. Think it was a 50/50 call at best.
Number of free throws we shot in the second half:
zero.
The good news is, I’m not sure we’ve lost any of these games except Duke because we got out-talented. Our biggest problem – keep going to the post – is easily fixed.
it's harder to fix when your guards are turning it over before they even get into their set
there’s no reason this team can’t get drastically better over the course of the season. But I think the failure to get it in the post is just a symptom of a bigger problem—a mental problem—that’s causing us to be sloppy on the dribble, in passing, and in rebounding.
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
So now can I ask the question I asked last night?
Formerly 'snail. You get used to it after a while.
by Chris Pendley on Dec 15, 2011 6:52 AM EST up reply actions
Still don't know who backs a car into another car.
______________________________________________
Boom. Here comes the Boom. Braydy or not. Here comes the boy from the West.
by bobothevol on Dec 15, 2011 6:55 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
80% of our players are dumb but not as dumb as last year
But we have two additional problems this year:
1. Tobias Harris is not on the team
2. We don’t have as much sheer talent to make dumb things work sometimes
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
What is the deal with our coaches not "SEALING THE DEAL"
We have to be approaching a record of number of games, football and basketball combined, where we crap out in the second half. What a nightmare!
R.I.P. Atlanta Thrashers 1999-2011
"then you see it just get swept away in an avalanche of missed threes, selfish play, and poor defense"
You forgot about the turnovers.
This was worse last night with 16
but on the year we’re not terrible in this department – we average 13.3 per game, which is fourth best in the SEC. Only had 10 against Pitt, 10 against Oakland. That’s why to me this team’s flaws are less about stupid decisions and laziness, and more about playing together and playing with patience.
by Will Shelton on Dec 15, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure that stupid decisions and laziness
are something different than not playing together and playing impatiently.
Impatience leads to stupid decisions. Mental laziness is a cause of not playing together and lack of patience.
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Better said then, perhaps
their stupid decisions seem to manifest themselves more in early shots than in turnovers. A significant percentage of our turnovers have been from not having good ball handlers.
Fun fact: every one of Pearl’s teams averaged between 13-14 turnovers per game. So we’re not doing anything different here.
by Will Shelton on Dec 15, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
I genuinely think that--apart from Tobias Harris--our discipline on offense right now is better than it was under Pearl
but the talent level is lower, so some of the frustrating droughts are even more frustrating.
And I agree that the majority of our turnovers come from not having good ballhandlers. But the things that stick in your mind are things like Golden trying an oop to Kenny Hall down 5 with a minute to go. . . yeesh.
Also, every time I hear somebody say Cuonzo needs to go because we lost to three mid-majors in two weeks, I want to punch them. Short memories.
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
It's a fair point
I didn’t “get” to see the Oakland or Pitt games (and also didn’t comb through the box scores), so my comment is obviously tilted toward last night’s game and things like the missed alley-oop referenced above.
by JohnCoctostan on Dec 15, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
The missed three pointers weren't terrible shots
We just couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. We do need to get it inside, and Hall and Maymon need to demand the ball down low even in a zone, but we missed several shots that were basically wide open. Skylar probably shot too many, but you honestly can’t blame the guy. That’s what he does, and most of the time he does it very well. He hit them in the first half and in the second half he just couldn’t. If we hit our wide open shots I honestly think we would’ve won.
With that being said the offense obviously freaked when CoC went into the zone, and that frustration led to poor defensive play. We have to improve our half court set plays against the zone.
I can still appreciate the effort, these guys are working hard and not giving up. I still believe at some point it will click and they will hit their stride.
put simply...
I don’t think Hall is particularly coordinated. Just don’t see any real upside from him, so we desperately need a quality center.
he has a nice little spin move at the basket
before the opponent realizes that it’s the only move he has
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe it's just me..
… but 6 or 7 games into his tenure seems ridiculously early for anyone to make any type of judgements about Coach Martin. Has Claaaaaay written a column yet asking why we aren’t hiring Coach K with all the money we have? (I had to get him off my Facebook & Twitter for mental health reasons).
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
by sddbaker on Dec 15, 2011 3:32 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I THINK WE SHOULD FIRE KWANZO MARTIN RIGHT NOW AND HIRE BACK BRUCE PEARL
I KNOW HE’S NOT ALLOWED TO COACH ANY GAMES OR TALK TO RECRUITS FOR THREE YEARS, BUT IF HE WAS IN THE PROGAM WE NEVER WOULDA LOST TO OAKLAND OR CHARLESTON. IMMA HANG UP AND LISTEN CLLLLLLLAAAAAAAYYYYYYY
If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk
by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
I greatly enjoy the fact this state has its own PAWWWWWWWWWL
"I don't think it's me personally, I really don't." - JaMarcus Russell after losing 38-0 to the Jets
by WhiteWinterHymnal on Dec 15, 2011 11:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
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