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Vol Villains Round One: Ed Orgeron vs. Dave Clawson

This picture was taken in a game his team lost by 44 points while being outgained by 483 yards.

The most diabolical assistant coaches in Tennessee history, though I'm pretty sure only one of them was actually trying to be.

Ed Orgeron

  • Replaced our own David Cutcliffe at Ole Miss in 2005.  The Rebel decision makers who forced Cutcliffe out were rewarded with a 10-25 run from 2005-07, including 3-21 in the SEC.  Orgeron beat two teams with a winning record.  Both of them were Memphis.
  • Chose the Vols over LSU thanks to a late recruiting push from the Kiffins.  Orgeron looked like he was in a great situation here:  he could recruit, he wasn't in charge of anything significant on gameday, and he could get defensive linemen to the NFL (like Dan Williams).  This clearly wasn't a guy you wanted as your head coach or even your defensive coordinator, but the role he served with UT made him so easy to like without having to worry about him really hurting the program.  Which made what eventually happened so much worse.
  • When Kiffin left in the middle of the night - and don't worry, we'll get to that tomorrow - Orgeron called early enrollees and told them not to go to class so they could eventually enroll at USC.  He was either too stupid to realize or too brash to care that some of them were in a team meeting at the time, playing his ridiculous call on speaker phone for the players to hear.
  • As the recruiting head of the chimera, he is significantly responsible for landing the #10 overall class in 2009.  His "We're not angels, and we're not going to recruit a bunch of angels" comment suggests he is also significantly responsible for the character judgments of the players who made up that class; eight of the top twelve recruits from that class are not with the team today.
  • If you made up the most creative rumor about something spectacularly, flagrantly illegal he did on the recruiting trail while at UT, my first response would be, "Well...it could be true."
  • Has destroyed my ability to enjoy the Colonel Reb is Crying video.
  • "Maybe Orgeron is Kiffin with even less self control, maybe he's just Ron Zook with a worse record, but either way, perhaps no one person has done more deliberate damage to the Tennessee program while offering less tangible value in return." - Doug Gillett in our Rocky Top Tennessee 2010 annual

Dave Clawson

  • Made us spend the summer of 2008 fantasizing about the Clawfense and The Incredible Flipping O-Line.  As Joel put it on a podcast earlier this year, "It was going to be so complicated that only we could understand it."
  • First part was right on the money:  the 2008 Vols were 111th in scoring, 89th in rushing, 107th in passing, and 116th in total offense.
  • At UCLA, Arian Foster and Montario Hardesty averaged 6.48 yards per carry.  But Clawson went to Jonathan Crompton for 41 pass attempts, of which he completed only 19.  The Vols lost.
  • In The Battle of The Worst Offensive Coordinators of All-Time, Tennessee was down 14-12 at Auburn in the fourth quarter.  The Vols started four consecutive drives between the UT 43 and the Auburn 40, needing only a field goal to win.  The result:  four straight three and outs.
  • Ultimately, the person most responsible for what happened to Phillip Fulmer is Phillip Fulmer.  But Dave Clawson is next in line.
  • Think about all the terrible things you and I said about Jonathan Crompton.  After the second half of 2009, how many of those things would we go back and adjust to make less about Crompton and more about Clawson?
  • Both looks like and knows just as much about football as Jimmy from Bull Durham (or Pete "Dead Meat" Thompson from Hot Shots!, if you like).
  • Became the head coach at Bowling Green after Fulmer was fired, because apparently no one in their athletic department owns a television or has the ability to read a box score.  The Falcons' final offensive numbers in 2010:  99th scoring, 120th rushing, 51st passing, 115th total offense.  GIVE HIM TIME!
Poll
Who is the greater Vol Villain?
Ed Orgeron
227 votes
Dave Clawson
100 votes

327 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 37 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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agreed

and, painful as the 2008 season was, especially relative to expectations, we had needed a change for a while, and the 2008 season brought it about. We never needed what Orgeron brought.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Go Bolts! Out West, go Preds! Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on May 18, 2011 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

No one needs what Dave Clawson brings

And not to make this all about my boy Phillip, but we did win the East in 2007, so I’ll always disagree with us “need(ing) change for a while”.

USC should always recruit well, and so I wonder how much of their current and continued recruiting success in the rankings they even think to attribute to Orgeron.

by Will Shelton on May 18, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

we won the East in roller coaster fashion in 2007

We needed four overtimes against Kentucky, we tried to give the game away against South Carolina, and we got hammered by our two biggest rivals, despite both having down years. I’ll agree that we didn’t need Dave Clawson, and that the change we got was much uglier than it should’ve been, but it was time for a change. The departure of the Kiffin crew, on the other hand, gave us three coaches in three years. That’s never good. And, to repeat danmarcel “never ascribe malice to that which can be explained by incompetence.” Orgeron is a villain. Clawson is just not any good.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Go Bolts! Out West, go Preds! Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on May 18, 2011 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know what you're getting with O though

We knew he was shady, we knew he was wreckless, we hired him anyway. It was like touching the hot pan just to see if it’ll actually burn you and being surprised and upset when it does. Plus I think in the long run, Kiffin and his merry men leaving when they did was probably for the better.

Nothing Clawson’s offense did was for the better.

Bring it across, shape it down

by Getoffmyvols on May 18, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not to say I'm surprised Orgeron is winning in a landslide

I just view him as more of a villian to society and College Football in General than specifically to Tennessee.

Bring it across, shape it down

by Getoffmyvols on May 18, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

It has as much to do with our association with him as it does his general villainy, I think.

Everyone has dumb coordinators from time to time. (See: Steve “Dive” Addazio.) But being associated with a guy who was trying to pry recruits out of New Orleans post-Katrina a la Buddy Garrity is a special level of villainy.

by Chris Pendley on May 18, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thank Cut for 2007

Phillip had little to do with 2007, it was Cutcliff basically running the program with the Chief manning the defense. Cut’s departure, return and subsequent departure answered the question of who was most responsible for Tennessee’s success during Fulmer era. The Chief comes in second followed by Phillip.

Anywhooo I’m glad we won the East in 2007, but it had to be one of the ugliest and most improbable division wins in SEC history.

by phil g on May 18, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's interesting to me

how much disdain for Fulmer still remains among some, three years and two coaches later. I love Cutcliffe and Chavis and we were clearly at our best when we were fully operational with both of them, but I think it’s way too much to say they were more responsible for what happened here for 15 years than Fulmer was.

by Will Shelton on May 18, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea I don't get it...

You don’t win 152 games despite your own coaching

Bring it across, shape it down

by Getoffmyvols on May 18, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

And assembling, managing, and retaining a good staff is often under-appreciated.

by Joel Hollingsworth on May 18, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which he failed at

Other than Cut and Chavis and perhaps Trooper, Fulmer doesn’t have a great track record of hiring/promoting good assistants and firing the many on his staff who didn’t produce.

I don’t ‘disdain’ Fulmer, just don’t think he was as great as his record at face value indicates and was left disappointed at the inability to sustain the excellence after the championship season even with some very loaded rosters. Most of his success came in the 90’s with Cutcliff and Chavis against a weak UGA , AL and a dreadful USCe.

The last 10 years of his career, particularly the way 2006 and 2008 seasons and the infamous Peach Bowl debacles went down really tainted his repution and record with me.

by phil g on May 18, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

but two of the ones you mentioned were two of the only three coordinators

that served on his staff in the first thirteen years. He had serious troubles with some position coaches, but his coordinator track record really wasn’t bad.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Go Bolts! Out West, go Preds! Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on May 18, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Question:

Name a coach, any coach, who has had sustained Top 10 success for 16 years in the 90s and 2000s? Righto.

The game has changed, and my personal belief is that Fulmer just couldn’t keep up with the times. He was a great coach, and took us to great heights in the 90s, but could not compete with the mercenary culture of the last decade. Unfortunately, strong ties to the university (or even state or region) no longer matter.

by kingofzachland on May 18, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

He had a great run

His run was against a weakened division, but that is not his fault he could only play and win the games presented. In my opinion he’s a bit overrated. He really only had one good run in him and but when competition increased and things changed, he had no answer. No shame in that. He deseerves an honored legacy, but I just don’t consider him a great coach, an all timer…just a very good coach who was given an opportunity and did well with it in a favorable situation but couldn’t sustain it.

by phil g on May 19, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think this is a fairly good assessment

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Go Bolts! Out West, go Preds! Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on May 19, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like Fulmer

and also agree that the disdain is unwarranted. He oversaw the program during some of the greatest years in our history. But I don’t think he had a lot left there at the end, and I’ll stand by “a change was needed,” East championship or no.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Go Bolts! Out West, go Preds! Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on May 18, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll never understand...

how a former offensive lineman could fail to notice the massive problems we began having on the offensive line from about 2002 on… we had a couple of decent running seasons, but even at our best we couldn’t grind down teams like we used to. Even the mediocre ones would often stop us on 3rd or 4th and short.

by Caban on May 18, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

in the aforementioned East-winning season, Cutcliffe hid our terrible offensive line by having nothing but five yard pass patterns. I exaggerate slightly, but you get the idea.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Go Bolts! Out West, go Preds! Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on May 18, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm watching the 1998 Syracuse game...

and granted it was close, we had offensive linemen 5 yards downfield and nobody got in the backfield.

It’s a miracle we pulled it off, with the way Tee played between the first drive and his scramble… but we were pushing them around so easily midseason Tee would’ve given us a 3 TD win.

by Caban on May 18, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

You might be mistaking vociferocity* for disdain

The ship was quite clearly sinking.
Some were weirdly in denial about this.
So others yelled louder.

And maybe the problem is that the folks who were yelling simply need to re-adopt their inside voices. Or perhaps the folks who were yelling had put in earplugs so that the yelling wouldn’t cause any permanent damage to their hearing…and then they simply forgot to remove the earplugs and thus have no idea that the decibel level they are presently communicating with is no longer needed, or socially acceptable.
_______________
*Probably not a word.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on May 18, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

and Fulmer

and Foster (came in out of shape, skipped a lot of practices) and Crapton.

by phil g on May 18, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I believe you're thinking of 2005, 06 we were 9-4 and had some nice wins (Cal, UGA etc...)

Even so, I still had far less fun in 2008. 2005 we had the high point of the Rally at Death Valley and were at least in most of the games that we we lost. 08 was just complete and utter helplessness from the start.

Bring it across, shape it down

by Getoffmyvols on May 18, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love your hatred for Clawsen, Will.

But it’s not particularly close. (That being said, I fully appreciate any and all drive-bys on Clawsen.)

by Chris Pendley on May 18, 2011 8:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Not sure Clawsen is totally to blame

The Clawsen hire was a mistake but there’s a lot of blame to pass around for the complete dysfunction of that offense and team. Much of that blame falls at the feet of the head coach.

One of the critical elements that tends to be overlooked is that Fulmer retained possibly the worst or at least one of the worst Oline coaches in my memory.

Yea, Clawsen was bad, but his intentions were at least good…can’t say the same for the Ogre.

by phil g on May 18, 2011 11:51 AM EDT reply actions  

The O-line had a lot to do with it...

but the overwhelming evidence in the last 3 seasons(Tennessee and 2 at BGSU) has been that Clawson is a bit of a nincompoop.

I also saw the numbers on Jimmy Ray Stephens at MTSU… not impressive.

What you saw was a terrible offensive coordinator without an offensive line.

by Caban on May 18, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

don't disagree

Jimmy Ray is the other one, not sure who was worse him or Adkins. Adkins might have been the better recruiter, but both were awful o-line coaches.

by phil g on May 18, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's what fuels the fire of my disdain for Clawson

The 2007 offensive line gave up 4 sacks all year, best in college football. The 2008 line had to replace one starter – Chris Scott moved from guard to tackle to replace Eric Young, and Vlad Richard came in to play guard. The personnel and the experience suggest the offensive line should’ve been on par with what we saw in ’07.

The ’08 offense had to replace three other starters: Luke Stocker for Chris Brown (upgrade), Gerald Jones for Austin Rogers (upgrade), and of course, Crompton for Ainge. Here are the offensive numbers for both years again:

2007: 36th scoring, 74th rushing, 35th passing, 54th total
2008: 111th scoring, 89th rushing, 107th passing, 116th total

By far the two most significant differences were Crompton and Clawson. I think hindsight shows Crompton was in the same conversation as Ainge in the second half of 2009. So the vast, vast majority of the data suggests the person most responsible for what happened in 2008 is Dave Clawson.

It’s Fulmer’s ship, and as I mentioned in the post, he’s always going to be the person most responsible for what happened to him. But both at the time and now, some fans found/find it convenient to disregard the mountains of evidence that Dave Clawson was a total disaster who should be spoken of with far, far less mercy than was shown Randy Sanders…and instead, just kind of push his incompetence to the side and take all that angst out on Fulmer.

What happened to Fulmer had to happen, especially by late October, and wasn’t going to happen any other way. I’m not saying we were wrong in doing it. But to let Clawson off the hook is a fantastic injustice. Some percentage of the blame that Fulmer got in 2008 should have fallen on his shoulders. And I still believe it is a very significant percentage.

by Will Shelton on May 18, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well said Will, as usual.

I was gonna chime in on this, but Will said what I was pretty much thinking, so I’ll just make do with a ‘ditto’ and a rec.

by danmarcel on May 18, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

this one is hard...

all the others have been easy for me

by STLvolfan on May 18, 2011 1:59 PM EDT reply actions  

I voted for Clawson

because without him, there may never have been Orgeron at UT.

by STLvolfan on May 18, 2011 2:01 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

As much as I hate Orgeron now

I truly believe Clawson was most responsible for our fall from greatness. We had already fallen quite a bit when Orgeron arrived. After all, the only reason we got Orgeron was because of Clawson’s failures.

Florida Sucks!

by Orange Swarm on May 18, 2011 5:53 PM EDT reply actions  

All this does is reinforce my belief...

that coaches, in general, aren’t that bright.

There are a few who are obviously very intelligent, and they tend to be the great ones… but I’ve known guys in retail and fast food who make better hiring decisions than I see from college coaches and ADs every season.

I have a feeling that with Dooley we’re already way ahead of the curve on brains.

by Caban on May 18, 2011 6:51 PM EDT reply actions  

and I reiterate...

I think Muschamp is a godawful hire, and wouldn’t be shocked to see Florida look like a Zook team or even slightly worse.

This isn’t just anti-Florida crap… I called Zook being a moron, but I cursed up a storm the day they hired Urban Meyer.

by Caban on May 18, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

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