Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: My First Fight: Diego Sanchez

Not as well or just not as many? Rocky Top recruiting 2008

Enthusiastic chest bump to hooper (who I'm betting proposed to his wife with numbers and charts) for the following fantastic post. Enjoy! -- Joel

In the interest of over-analyzing the recruiting thing, I decided to take a closer look at UT's class. This was partly because I'm new to the recruiting game and wanted to learn more, partly because I'm a total geek and I do this kind of thing, and partly because I had some suspicions about the rankings I wanted to check over.

First things first: I used data from Scout.com for a very simple reason - it was easy. Everybody has their preferences between Scout and Rivals, so I simply took the one that I knew I could use without any trouble. I really don't have a reason to favor any one of the rankmakers over another.

Second things second: because the rankings are all done on perception and projection, they are necessarily fraught with error. How much? Too much for this kind of analysis to be very reasonable, but it's fun anyway. To make things worse, there's really no good way of estimating the error. Even if the rankings of past classes were compared to their on-field results, there's still the pesky problems of things like injuries, coaching, academics, schedules, and so on that might affect the perception of a class. So rather than try to estimate the error, I'll just assume it's massive and suggest that everything I say be taken with a shaker's worth of salt.

On to the show:

Before even analyzing the data, it seemed to be a good idea to see how Scout arrived at their [team] rankings. From their own statement, it's a combination of *Talent, Need and Balance*. Talent is self-explanatory. Need is their attempt to determine how well a recruit fits a team's need. Balance seems to be some kind of overarching factor on how well-built a team is. That is, are there any holes in any positions, etc. Naturally, no more detail is given since the method is proprietary, but that's enough to go on.

The first insight (before even looking at the data!) is that the star-system is based only on talent. If a 4-star signs with a team that's absolutely overloaded at his position, he's still a 4-star. If he were to sign with a team that needs him with utmost desperation, he's still a 4-star. So, right away, we can note that talking about a player's stars only tells us of the evaluation of talent, and nothing about how well they fit any particular team. This is worth noting for later.

With the Scout data in Excel, I first looked at the distribution of points.

The lowest bin only exists to account for poor Western Kentucky, whom Scout has ranked at the bottom by a fair margin. Otherwise, we can easily see that the rankings system tends to cluster teams together at the lower end, while spreading teams out at the upper end. Again, another useful insight. This would suggest that Scout's rankings use multiplicative factors in some fashion. (For example, when they account for Need in the rankings, a highly-needed player may be worth twice a player of average need. A completely unneeded player might not be worth anything. I don't know if that's how it works for them, but the distribution suggests it's a system similar to that.)

There are two things to take out of the distribution. First, if one team gets twice as many points as another class, it's not necessarily twice the value. Second, the margin of error increases as the number of points increases. Those top few teams may have a margin of error of a few hundred points, while the lower teams may only have a margin of error of a few dozen points. (Not that we'd know the ranges; this is just for intuitive purposes.)

Now for a closer look. Since different teams have different class sizes, the next step is to compare points per player.

Star-divide

The distribution looks similar and may even be more bottom-heavy than the point totals. The lowest bin has a lower limit of 16, so the range here runs from 16 up to about 205. That means that the teams with the most value per player have players that are more than ten times as valuable to their team than those at the bottom. Think about that for a second. Does that make sense? Sure, the top teams got players with much better projections, but are the players for the bottom-end teams of 1A football really only a tenth of the worth as the players for the top end? That just doesn't make sense. So we can definitely see the spread inherent in the points.

What this means is that differences in points between teams at the high end mean less than they do between teams at the low end. So, rather than worrying about who's number 1, the more telling metric is who are in the top 10, or 20, or so. It's more informative to group the results than to compare adjacent teams. Not to take any thunder from Alabama, but that means that their class is effectively equal to Notre Dame's and Miami's. That's still a really, really good projection; it just doesn't sound as sexy to say "We're in the number 1 group!" as it does to say "We're number 1!". (Besides, any chance to refer to Notre Dame as "number 2" should always be taken.)

Now I'll just look at the schools in the major conferences. There is a decided advantage in recruiting for the major conferences that we all understand, and it's very easy to see numerically in the rankings. Separating the majors from the mid-majors, a Oneway plot (a plot, for the nonstatistic types) looks like this.

The little black dots each represent a school. The schools from the major conferences (the left-hand column) tend to score higher than the mid-major schools. Really, this is nothing more than visualizing what we already knew. The reason I show this is to explain why I'm going to separate the major conference schools from the midmajors; they're effectively two different groups.

On an aside, an interesting thing happens with the mid-majors. Most of their dots are so tightly clustered together that the top-ranked mid-major actually appears as a statistical outlier. Translation? Given the performance of the mid-majors, the top-ranked mid-major had a class above and beyond the expectation for this group. That lucky team? Fresno State. Make of it what you will (or won't).

So, here's the graph for the majors. [Ooh! Orange! -- ed.] It's still a similar trend, but there is a decided bottom-end tail. (The bottom-dweller? Washington State.)

This graph does turn out to be a little more useful. There's more of a clustering in the middle of the graph, which is more in-line with how we tend to think of distributions like this. Additionally, it's a better graph to use to discuss Tennessee's performance against our competition, so to speak. Where is UT? Their player average is 128.9, so UT would be in that middle "125" column. Who does that compare UT to? Well, the next-highest score is 131.1 for Colorado, aided largely by nabbing the top-rated running back in the nation. The next lowest score is really not any lower than UT's at all: a 128.9 for Florida State.

Wait. FSU?!? Didn't they just have a top-10 class? [Checks on Scout.com. Yup.] Not just a top-10 class, but a top-five class. Does that mean the only difference between UT and FSU is the number of players? Sort of. Remember that the score accounts for "*Talent, Need and Balance*". It's a bit much to carry it that far, but it is fair to say that our recruits are comparable to FSU's.

Ok, who's top? Ohio State scores the highest at 205, followed by USC and Notre Dame at 200. Then a rather large drop occurs: Georgia is fourth at 179. Alabama, you ask? 12th at 150. Miami? 16th at 139. Yup, Miami's 3rd-ranked class is only a smidge higher per player than UT's. They simply got more. Speaking of UT, their per-player ranking is 21st.

All right, all right. What about the SEC? After all, why would we even care about the rest? Ok, I'll talk. In this fashion, UT ranks 5th in the SEC. The order is Georgia (179), Florida (169), LSU (150), Alabama (150), UT (129), Auburn (109), Spurrier (107), Arkansas (107), MSU (96), Kentucky (86), Ole Miss (72), and Vanderbilt (54). In pretty picture form:

So UT is not quite with the elite four, but not quite with anybody else, either.

So why does this all matter? Well, remember that UT didn't have a lot of slots available. The '05 and '07 classes were both huge and stocked with a lot of starters (or potential starters). There wasn't a whole lot of room to bring in people. Meanwhile, places like Miami, FSU, and Notre Dame all need to overhaul their teams and start over. (Translation: lots of opportunities for freshmen starters.) Places like Alabama and Michigan have huge coaching turnover, and incoming players who fit the new systems better than the returning players feel they have a good chance to start. So it's not so much that UT didn't draft recruit as well as some of the top-10 programs, but that they didn't draft recruit as many. Update [2008-2-8 10:54:58 by Joel]: The word "draft" in this context only applies to schools in the state of Alabama. -- ed.

Granted, UT could have used about 2 more on the D-line and about 3 more on the O-line to be really, truly happy. But other than that, the incoming class looks about as good as a typical major-conference class.

Oh, and for one more item to think over. UT has two incoming players who aren't accounted for on any ranking system. Courtesy of a well-written article by Jeffery Stewart, you'll note that we get Brandon Warren, a Florida State transfer who was a 4-star tight end in '06 and actually contributed nicely for the Seminoles that year. The other is Demetrice Morley, a five-star DB who was actually part of UT's '05 class. (Morley gets an '08 scholarship after sitting out the '07 campaign.) So we are giving two more schollys this year than what the boards account for, though it's debatable whether you should count them for this year's class. If you did include them in the total point rankings, UT would certainly be top 25 somewhere with only 20 players. If you included them in the per-player rankings, UT would probably land close to 15. Not bad for a year with fewer slots available, huge coaching turnover, and unending off-field problems.

Poll
Did hooper propose to his wife using only numbers and graphs?
Oh, yeah
0 votes
No, he also used a spreadsheet
10 votes

10 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 6 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Making the Team
Interesting analysis of the signing classes for this year.  Since you point out that quantity of players signed contributes to the overall ranking of the class, I would dearly love to see this analysis rerun in say the Aug/Sep 08 timeframe once the recruits have qualified academically and actually received their scholarship.  The results and class rankings might actually paint a different picture.

by volinal on Feb 8, 2008 10:23 AM EST reply actions  

JINX!
At least we're consistent in seeing flaws in the system!  (See my post below.)

by Aerobab on Feb 8, 2008 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice work!
We need to get you a hobby like nuclear engineering or something.  Wait, what?  Oh, nevermind...this fellow engineer/nerd approves!

On a side note, I'm in the "reinstated/transfer students should be left out of recruiting classes" camp.

Also, another flaw in the recruiting ranking system is the fact that many schools "over-sign" by having more players commit to the school than there are availible scholarships available.  And then there are also VHTs who commit, knowing that they'll be academically ineligible.  These "extras" are nothing more than fluffers that artificially inject bias into the subjectively-scientific formula. I believe Tennessee saw both of these factors with the 2007 class.

by Aerobab on Feb 8, 2008 10:26 AM EST reply actions  

Great idea
Like I tried to make clear in the article, this is really no better than the rankings for gauging a class, but it might get a better vantage point on the value of the recruits.  If Scouts happens to update their rankings later on - especially during the preseason - I'd be happy to re-evaluate.  The whole thing only took about an hour, so it's not much to ask.  I seriously doubt they'd do that, though, since nobody's really going to care.  I have no clue how to make those adjustments manually, so it'd be really dishonest for me to even try.

The real surprise to me was how much better the player averages were for OSU, ND, and USC than everybody else.  If there is any significance in this data, they might very well be in their own demographic, the difference is that great (~15%).  I'd rate Notre Dame as the best class at this stage, with USC and OSU at 2 and 3.  If OSU picks up Pryor, I hope they redo the numbers so I can try again.

At any rate, I hope it entertained.  I didn't mean this to be too serious, but I thought it would be interesting.

by David Hooper on Feb 8, 2008 10:17 PM EST reply actions  

What?
This is the biggest burnt orange bunch of hogwash Ive ever seen.  We took three of your top five recruits, and have beaten you two of the last three years. We live in the past? Keep trying, you will find a silver lining... somewhere.

by tidegradrltd04 on Feb 12, 2008 2:08 PM EST reply actions  

Nah. Just my own personal fun.
As I mentioned in the beginning of the article, it's my way of learning more about this recruiting thing, and it was a good way for me to get a better handle on the rankings and their limitations.  Since this is your very first comment here (welcome, by the way!), I'll fill you in on some things you might find interesting.
  •  In a subsequent Diary entry here on RTT, I explained that the Scout methodology makes much of my analysis errant.  I did not realize that at the time of the posting.  It would improve Alabama's average (and probably UT's, though not as much).
  •  Scout will update their rankings in the fall.  They will be able to tell who actually shows up to play.  For example, Alabama's class will only be 25 by then (since you won't find 6 players who will play without scholarship out of that class).  The academic washouts and JUCO holds will be sorted out, and that'll help.
  •  You'll find here (and many other UT and UA blogs) that nobody disputes that UT's recruiting class is down from previous years.  A part of that is UA's class, where a bunch of high school seniors believe they're the answer to Saban's new SEC order.  (That's a whole article to itself, and not nearly as snarky as that last sentence may seem.)  A part of that is also that UT doesn't have much room on their roster this year.  The '07 class is turning out so well that UT just doesn't have the playing time to sell that Alabama has.  Add that to the recent arrests of Vol players and the high media interest in the team that K'ville's fishwrap has, and the reasons for the down recruiting year are obvious.
  •  If you read my profile (click on my name), you'll see that I am not a Vol lifer.  I am here for grad school and I enjoy the games while I'm here, but this whole Southern football mania is not a part of me, and vice versa.  I didn't write this out of some need to find solace, but because I find this kind of stuff interesting to do.  (Yes, I'm a geek.)
I hope that helps.  More honestly, I hope you stick around and add to the community here.  Having fans of other teams really spices things up.  Unfortunately, most rival posters prefer to post once or twice when they hit an article they don't like and disappear afterwards.  Please don't be like that; hop on in and have fun.  Joel runs a great site, and I think you'll enjoy it here.

by David Hooper on Feb 13, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Tennessee Volunteers.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Checkerboard_enzone_small
My Signing Day Experience

Recent FanPosts

Dool-aid_small
When Defense of an Icon Goes Bad
Associated_20press_clayliston_1965_l_small
Wherein Kentucky Basketball Fans Expand Their Vocabulary
Vollyroger_small
Tennessee vs. Northern Illinois baseball series
20050073_detail_small
2010 LSU Game: Is Dooley Secretly A Genius?
20050073_detail_small
Evidence that 2012 should be The Year of the Vol
Checkerboard_enzone_small
State Of The Class: A List Of Tennessee's 2012 Recruits - UPDATED
A_cullen_the_bug_small
Where Do We Go From Here with Stokes?
A_cullen_the_bug_small
Joe Paterno Near Death?
Picture_081_small
Ob-la-di, Ob-la-da

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SHOP THE ROCKY TOP TALK STORE

Gameday Depot University Apparel

Animated Drive Charts

RTT Classics

RTT Classics 2008 Animated BlogPoll2007 Animated BlogPollLOL! Your logo is so scary! Welcome to Rocky Top Talk Tradition! Fiddlin' on the Roof2008 Animated BlogPoll The Season of Which We Do Not Speak Pearlfection Case Study: 2QB Systems and the 2005 Tennessee Volunteers The 2007 College Football Blogger Awards The 2006 College Football Blogger Awards The 20 coolest college football logos The 10 worst college football logos The 29 most boring college football logos 2006 Animated BCS Race 2005 Animated Race to the Rose Bowl

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Oh, look. Kentucky fans got their feelwins hurt.
Softball - #9 Tennessee defeats #1 Arizona State 3-0 in Tempe
#9 Lady Vols softball opens the season in the Kajikawa Classic
Peyton Manning's face is everywhere!!
Potential Alzheimer's treatment with results.
Volunteer baseball TV schedule announced
Feelslike98 Film Room
Your 2012 University of Tennessee Volunteers Recruiting Class
USA Today Pre-season Coach's baseball poll
Cordarrelle Patterson Signs With Tennessee

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

YouTube


Editor-in-Chief

Gameday_depot_hat_guy_190x190__no_drop_shadow__small Joel Hollingsworth

Senior Editor

Gromit_small David Hooper

Associated_20press_clayliston_1965_l_small kidbourbon

Tennessee_logo_small Will Shelton

Tumblr_lx1hpdd3yx1r2a42bo1_250_small Chris Pendley

Mutantenemy_small Incipient_Senescence

Ut_small Brad Shepard

Author

Avatar2_small rustytanton

Vols_dooley_hair_small Getoffmyvols

Pygmy_marmoset_small marmotman

Picture_081_small Joseph Stanley

Jackson_the_mule_avatar_small Jackson the Mule

Img_0171_small RockyTopinKY

6156218740_03c5ca84f5_m_small VolnVA

Top_small _trey_

Small Chien Rouge